Best judo throws for BJJ?

[SAMURAI SPIRIT]

Hello can anyone tell me what are the most basic judo throws for BJJ?

Thanks -

Osu-

 

[JudokaUK]

Ko uchi gari



De ashi barai



However, the dirty little secret is that if you're good enough at stand up grappling you can throw someone with whatever you want and finish it a good position to continue into newaza.

 

[Vitamin C]

What is the opinion generally on hip throws?

It is essentially all I get taught as they are in the self defense curriculum. I figure if I get reps on them I may as well try to make them work for me in competition.

I do like that ko ouchi gari.

 

[wigglestick]

What is the opinion generally on hip throws?

It is essentially all I get taught as they are in the self defense curriculum. I figure if I get reps on them I may as well try to make them work for me in competition.

I do like that ko ouchi gari.

hip throws are so awkard in bjj class when you don't know how to do them. make you feel so stupid lol i need to learn and practice takedowns before i even think of competition

 

[JudokaUK]

What is the opinion generally on hip throws?

Ermm....

They're as good/ valid as any other techniques...

Not really part of my Judo, my Judo is all ashiwaza + a shoddy Tai otoshi, but if hip throws are your thing, go for it.

The only issue is that 'hip throws' is a much broader thing than 'ashiwaza'.

So for example, if I'm an ashiwaza guy that can mean O soto, De ashi, O uchi, Sasae, Uchi mata etc...

That's a pretty broad church of throws and can be done from varying grips, positions etc...

Koshiwaza/ hip throws are a little different.

A lot of koshiwaza lock you into a specific style of Judo.

For example if you like O goshi, Uki goshi and Tsuri goshi you're pretty much locked into doing all your Judo from a round the back grip and thus this limits what else you can do in terms of throws and locks you into certain movement patterns.

So if you're doing those koshi waza you're going to do a style of Judo similar to Fernandes:



However, if you do Harai goshi, Sode tsurikomi goshi, Tsurikomi goshi and Koshi guruma.

You aren't as locked down. You can do them from various grips and situations, you're more free in terms of movement patterns and other techniques you can do around them.

For example, Teddy Riner has Harai goshi as one of his major techniques, but has a far more 'open' style of Judo than Fernandes

It is essentially all I get taught as they are in the self defense curriculum. I figure if I get reps on them I may as well try to make them work for me in competition.

Reps mean nothing without application against resistance.

Practising an armbar from guard 1000 times is nothing compared to applying an armbar from guard 1000 times in randori.

However, of course the 1000 practices are what helped to let you rack up the 1000 in randori.

I do like that ko ouchi gari.

Ko uchi gari is a great technique and goes nicely with 'around the back' Judo for the likes of O goshi etc...

 

[shouldercharge]

ashiwaza(foot sweeps), sacrifice throws especially if you have a strong guard incase your unsuccesful,osoto gari.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

It has alot to do with your body type and your personal preferences.

In my experience BJJers tend to be fight very huntched, which gives you a high grip.

 

[Vitamin C]

Ermm...

Thank you for this response! You always put so much thought and detail into everything you post here, know that it is appreciated. Your posts have made me really want to know Judo.

Anyway, I'm not really a "hip throw guy" or anything and I know that reps mean little compared to live randori, but its the best I've got to work with. We have been taught a double leg once in the time I've been training. A single leg twice. Self defense hip throws through, not uncommon to do once a month or so.

I've been watching a lot of O Goshi vids, and I have been trying to find what I've been taught, but it does not seem to come up in any lists of judo techniques that I can find. Not knowing the names of the techniques taught in class, nor those of judo doesn't help.

What we are typically taught is from an attacker choking you with both hands. SO your left hand grips his right elbow, your right arm comes up like a straight elbow to break off his other hands grips, then shoots past his head and grips either under his right armpit/lat, or just headlock style. Simultaneously stepping your right foot to his right foot, and pivoting so your left foot can come back and now you are square in front on him. Load him up on your hips and throw.

We have been taught once, as a grappling oriented lesson, to start from the sleeve and lapel grips, to do the same thing only you keep the collar grip and bend your elbow in and keep it tight to his chest.

I have no illusions about the judo I have been taught being any good. I just want to be able to work with what I have.


Edit; just had a eureka moment, I think what they are teaching us is some kind of seoi nage.

 

[JudokaUK]

Thank you for this response! You always put so much thought and detail into everything you post here, know that it is appreciated. Your posts have made me really want to know Judo.

Thanks. Now get your arse to a good Judo club, lol.

What we are typically taught is from an attacker choking you with both hands. SO your left hand grips his right elbow, your right arm comes up like a straight elbow to break off his other hands grips, then shoots past his head and grips either under his right armpit/lat, or just headlock style. Simultaneously stepping your right foot to his right foot, and pivoting so your left foot can come back and now you are square in front on him. Load him up on your hips and throw.

Edit; just had a eureka moment, I think what they are teaching us is some kind of seoi nage

Hmm, yeh, sorry to break it to you, but sounds like you've been taught a shitty unrealistic ippon seoi nage



Shitty, cos, well your description makes it sound that way and unrealistic, because Ippon seoi nage is one hard technique to pull off. And to do it in that kind of scenario you'd have to be super good.

We have been taught once, as a grappling oriented lesson, to start from the sleeve and lapel grips, to do the same thing only you keep the collar grip and bend your elbow in and keep it tight to his chest.

Morote seoi nage



Weird you're at a BJJ club, but being taught two of the hardest techniques to pull off in a BJJ contest or self defence situation.

But hey, that's what happens when you specialise in newaza, people lose focus on what the reality of stand up grappling is.

 

[deev]

A good Morote will usually render most folk a bit stunned for a second, especially BJJ folk who aren't used to getting thrown around too much. The trouble with a lot of Judo is that for Judo cmpetitions all you have to do is get the guy to land on his back and it;s over, it doesn;t matter if you end up rolling off him or the two of you roll and he ends up ontop, he's already lost 99% of the time. Obviously in BJJ you don't want to roll too far and end up on the bottom so you have to try and keep it tight and land up in side control. That also applies for street fights where a hip/shoulder throw to side control sets up a lovely position for dropping a few punches to their face before they realise whats going on!

 

[Bahiano]

I disagree with ko uchi gari because I think it's difficult to learn and for people who focus on ground work you need something more basic like o soto gari or tai otoshi...then morote gari is not that bad since it's similar to double leg.
I'll bring also the sacrifice techniques like sumi gaeshi and tomoe nage

 

[Vitamin C]

Weird you're at a BJJ club, but being taught two of the hardest techniques to pull off in a BJJ contest or self defence situation.

But hey, that's what happens when you specialise in newaza, people lose focus on what the reality of stand up grappling is.

I had a feeling...

Thanks though!

 

[JudokaUK]

I disagree with ko uchi gari because I think it's difficult to learn and for people who focus on ground work you need something more basic like o soto gari or tai otoshi...then morote gari is not that bad since it's similar to double leg.
I'll bring also the sacrifice techniques like sumi gaeshi and tomoe nage

Ko uchi gari is a much easier technique to learn than O soto gari or Tai otoshi.

Its not an 'easy technique', but in terms of how easy it is to defend versus scoring/movement creating potential balanced off against risk of being countered.

It vastly outstrips O soto gari and Tai otoshi in 'ease' of learning.

I had a feeling...

Thanks though!

Find a decent Judo club, or use the limited throwing time you have on practising more suitable throws.

If you can't find a near enough, decent Judo club PM me and I might be able to help.

If nothing else use my blog as a guide and you won't go far wrong.

 

[Vitamin C]

Find a decent Judo club, or use the limited throwing time you have on practising more suitable throws.

If you can't find a near enough, decent Judo club PM me and I might be able to help.

If nothing else use my blog as a guide and you won't go far wrong.

That's the thing. In my relatively small city, it seems every martial arts gym has their classes around the same time, perhaps to discourage people from attending other gyms, who can really say. There is one judo school in town that I know of, and like I say, has the same times as my BJJ gym, and actually the same (ridiculous) monthly price.

The second problem is we do virtually no "throwing time." We do these awful self defense seoinages as warmups, and recently they are telling us to just load onto the hip and not throw. "Throwing is the easy part, you just twist. So don't worry about it." After that it's all BJJ matwork, rolling starts from the knees, and mat space is limited so starting standing is a rare possibility, when it is possible no one wants too, which sometimes honestly I don't really mind because the level of take down instruction is so nil that it's usually more a giant risk of injury than anything productive.

So yeah to all you guys who say to not rag on BJJ for not knowing takedowns, "every BJJ gym teaches takedowns"... Your BJJ gyms teach takedowns... Be thankful for that. I'm sure I'm not the only guy training in a gym with literally no standing game.

It pisses me off because I know my coach wrestles in his own training time at other gyms.


Oh and thanks for the offer. If I ever do get a chance to work on throws you'll be a source of info for sure. Will check out your blog later tonight.

 

[shouldercharge]

perhaps one of your training partners would be interested in training on an off-night from bjj focussing on takedowns or even better see if you can find a judoka who is willing to train with you outside of class he can improve your throws and you can improve his ground game

 

[Vitamin C]

perhaps one of your training partners would be interested in training on an off-night from bjj focussing on takedowns or even better see if you can find a judoka who is willing to train with you outside of class he can improve your throws and you can improve his ground game

That could make an interesting craigslist ad :icon_lol:

 

[shouldercharge]

do it! you'd be suprised how many ads there are here in australia for martial arts training partners.
just say your a bjj practitioner looking for wrestlers or judoka to cross-train with.

 

[Vitamin C]

do it! you'd be suprised how many ads there are here in australia for martial arts training partners.
just say your a bjj practitioner looking for wrestlers or judoka to cross-train with.

Some day! I used to roll with some guys at the College I go to, but their programs were all shorter than mine and have moved on. One was a wrestler, and is where I learned my double leg. It's the matter of keeping up with it. Not training takedowns I'm probably just as bad as when I first met him.

 

[Darkslide632]

This is like asking what the best sweeps are for BJJ. There isn't a best answer. The best sweep is the one your opponent can be swept with in the moment, and the best throw is the one they can be thrown with.

The biggest problem using Judo in combination with BJJ is that it is relatively easy for an opponent to pull guard, or at the very least plop on their ass, which negates your ability to use any of your throwing techniques. Much the same as a Judo player who ends up in your guard and completely locks down, refusing to move, or standing up and completely disengaging... which limits, or prevents you from attacking/sweeping.

So, how do you stop someone from standing up and disengaging from your guard? Well, you control their posture and limit their ability to move... which is exactly what you should be doing when it comes to the stand-up game.

The biggest mistake I see when I watch Judo players doing BJJ is that they are perfectly happy with hon kumikata, or a basic lapel and sleeve grip. They rely on their better stand-up game to win, when what they SHOULD be doing is working to establish the dominant grip which will limit, or prevent their opponent from pulling guard or butt-flopping successfully. That's not to say you CAN'T use a lapel/sleeve grip, but the moment most opponents figure out that your stand-up game is better than theirs, they are likely to drop or pull guard and you've basically wasted the time you've spent working stand-up.

If you can't yet establish a 75/25 grip effectively, then it doesn't matter WHAT throw you choose to use (which is itself a bad way to approach the stand-up game) because you're not likely to be successful often. If, on the other hand, you ARE able to establish a 75/25 grip, then virtually every throw stands a good chance of working simply due to how much of a disadvantage your opponent is at when you begin your entry.

This brings us back to an ongoing discussion about whether or not a person wants to approach the stand-up game being able to throw an opponent from a multitude of position and situations using a variety of techniques based on how they move, or by dominating their opponents and dictating how they move and thus what they can be thrown with.

When I teach Judo for BJJ seminars, we focus on gripping. The stuff I teach is immediately useful in developing a strong gripping strategy and can be used right then and there.

Having said all of that, if I had to pick a single throw that I consider to be the most underutilized throw, it would be ude gaeshi. Most inexperienced grapplers will reach for the collar without understanding the risk, and I have so much success with ude gaeshi that I rarely ever have use for anything else if my opponent does so.

Ude Gaeshi - YouTube

 

[Blue Streak]

Having said all of that, if I had to pick a single throw that I consider to be the most underutilized throw, it would be ude gaeshi. Most inexperienced grapplers will reach for the collar without understanding the risk, and I have so much success with ude gaeshi that I rarely ever have use for anything else if my opponent does so.

Ude Gaeshi - YouTube

I have to admit that I have never actually seen this throw before. Thanks for posting.