Arm Spin Throw vs. Head and Arm Throw

[SummerStriker]

So, the Arm Spin isn't a move we did but for self defense it looks like a killer.

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I always felt like the point of the head and arm throw was that you were protecting your partner a little bit by getting him all the way over, but the arm spin throw just says fuck all that and leaves break falling in the hands of the uki.

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Here is the head and arm throw everyone I know does.

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To you wrestlers, do you feel like the Arm Spin is a dangerous move or a necessary move?

Thank you.

 

[Badger67]

It's a standard move everyone learns in judo/wrestling. It has its merits and uses but i find the higher the level the less it is used unless its on the peripheries (freestyle).

I've only ever seen one injury in all the events i've been to from it and it was similar to the second vid; it occurred at a wrestling tournament where the uke attempted to dive forward to not give up points and landed on his chin and his body went over his neck. He was fine just had bad whiplash and couldn't continue. Saw him at the next tournament the next week and he medal'd again.

Its a basic throw and nothing to be concerned about in terms of danger usually. There are better ways to defend it than what his attempt was. All in all, i wouldn't worry. Kids use it all the time with very little owies.

 

[BearGrounds]

Necessary. You have to know how to beat it. I never enjoyed drilling a belly to belly but it's invaluable defensively to be able to feel one coming.

 

[SFCFighter]

DISCLAIMER: wrestling nomenclature varies a lot region by region and coach by coach, so this is just my opinion and experience

First video isn't an arm spin, it's an arm throw or "japanese whizzer" or "*** whizzer"

Second video is an arm spin

Third video is a hip toss with a head and arm grip, not a head and arm throw or "headlock".

Out of all these four throws (hip toss, head and arm, arm throw, arm spin), I wouldn't feel that comfortable doing any of them in a self defense situation in the street because they are inherently more risky than most other takedowns. If I had to choose, personally I would go with a head and arm throw because it is more of a sagging motion and requires less complicated movement. Honestly sometimes its hard to do a complicated move or do a move with perfect technique on a wild and untrained person because they react in very unpredictable ways.


Head and arm/headlock/head throw

I would never do a back arch arm spin like the guy in the second video is doing in a 'street self defense situation'.. it's a very finesse move that I am not that good at.

An arm throw that doesn't quite work can leave you with the guy on your back ready to choke you.

A hip toss is fine for self defense if you are good at them, I am not.

I would say a head throw/head and arm/sag headlock is a necessary move to know in wrestling because it can be an effective counter and match ender in a lot of situations. New wrestlers (especially female wrestlers) are criticized for trying to headlock throw people constantly with no set up, which isn't what the move should be about. A hip toss is nice to know but not necessary. I don't think arm spins or arm throws are that common and they are risky, I don't consider them necessary in wrestling.

None of the moves mentioned in this thread are necessary for self defense. I think a snap down or a blast double or a snatch single leg are the best takedowns for self defense. Footsweeps and throws are nice but these moves are hard to get on someone who may not move like a wrestler. Moves that require a certain subtle reaction from someone shouldn't be your go-to's in a self defense situation.

 

[BearGrounds]

I always felt like the point of the head and arm throw was that you were protecting your partner a little bit by getting him all the way over, but the arm spin throw just says fuck all that and leaves break falling in the hands of the uki.

The point of the head and arm is control. Better control during the throw, better control at the end of it (side control). It's an easier technique to learn than the head and arm.

Both are high risk high reward techniques. If the opponent sees it coming, they'll be taking your back unless you can manage to complete the added task of scrambling your way out.

The sag is what you need to watch out for with both. With the head and arm you're at a higher risk of getting body locked, but you take that risk for the positional gain and control it provides (which is often superior to that of the head and arm).

 

[Badger67]

I find female wrestlers get criticized for it more often because they are "head hunters" and neglect the lower body takedowns (took me two years to correct my national champ on this).

As for self defense, i agree mostly with you. But i would also say pending experience. I'm a big fan of fight ending throws but i am someone who has practiced take downs relentlessly for quite some time vs a standard bjj practitioner who might fail with it. I also find if you're not good at osea komi after the head and arm throw you can get re-rolled or stabbed/punched in the back of the head as back exposure for many will be present. I'm more of a fan of facing the attacker to control his other limb. But this is more my individual philosophy; there isn't really any stats to back any of this up.

 

[Shemhazai]

IMO, this is the best headlock type TD for self defense:

 

[SummerStriker]

Its a basic throw and nothing to be concerned about in terms of danger usually. There are better ways to defend it than what his attempt was. All in all, i wouldn't worry. Kids use it all the time with very little owies.

No doubt kids are pretty tough. Sometimes I'm surprised by the techniques that are legal though when I feel like that should be in the same group as other dangerous ones. The difference being in large part that some techniques let the thrower protect the uki because the throw itself helps you land right, vs. throws where the uki has to actively get into a breakfall position. For either adults or kids, it seems like a throw where you smash your face or head unless you tuck and go with it is a little dangerous, yet the move is bread and butter for kids wrestling.

 

[Anthas]

IMO, this is the best headlock type TD for self defense:

That one you recommended to me in another post... I see you are a great fan of it! I was going to invest my time in the arm spin or in the firemans, but this one looked to fit perfectly with that I needed so I've been working on it. I'll let you know how it does for me! Thanks for the vid!

 

[Shemhazai]

That one you recommended to me in another post... I see you are a great fan of it! I was going to invest my time in the arm spin or in the firemans, but this one looked to fit perfectly with that I needed so I've been working on it. I'll let you know how it does for me! Thanks for the vid!

Yeah, I'm pretty sold on it, as I've trained with some good Greco guys who are super effective with it. And even when it fails, it sets up the snap-down, knee tap and lots of other stuff.

 

[SFCFighter]

That one you recommended to me in another post... I see you are a great fan of it! I was going to invest my time in the arm spin or in the firemans, but this one looked to fit perfectly with that I needed so I've been working on it. I'll let you know how it does for me! Thanks for the vid!

why on earth would you want to spend a lot of time drilling arm spins if you are not a wrestler competing in wrestling?

 

[ArtemV]

I learnt the arm spin a different way in Judo/Sambo, I do it when I have someones momentum going towards me or if they are recovering from a failed technique. I don't use the head arm throw so much, it's all right if you want to pin from it, but having an underhook on the opposite shoulder is better.

 

[Anthas]

why on earth would you want to spend a lot of time drilling arm spins if you are not a wrestler competing in wrestling?

It seems a viable option for subission grappling, when the other guy keeps his hips away, creating space for it, which is quite common.

 

[SFCFighter]

It seems a viable option for subission grappling, when the other guy keeps his hips away, creating space for it, which is quite common.

it's about the last wrestling technique i would show to a submission grappler, failure can lead to his arm around your neck and him behind you

i would say most college wrestlers do not have a good arm spin, it's just not a common move and it requires a high level of finesse and technique.. it certainly isn't a go-to move..

it's much more common in freestyle because you can get a 'free shot' at it if you fall to your stomach when it fails. they will call it a slipped throw attempt and not reward the other guy for being on your back while you are on the mat. even in freestyle, it isn't a common technique.

 

[SummerStriker]

it's much more common in freestyle because you can get a 'free shot' at it if you fall to your stomach when it fails. they will call it a slipped throw attempt and not reward the other guy for being on your back while you are on the mat. even in freestyle, it isn't a common technique.

USA Wrestling has it as a part of their first level curriculum for kid's just starting out.

http://content.themat.com/usawrestling/folkstyle_level1-usoc.php

Any reason you see the disparity between USA wrestling making it bread and butter, and its lack of appearance in actual wrestling? These guys must think it is a basic move.

 

[SFCFighter]

It's a good skill to develop at the youth level. Notice it is listed under backstep offense. Most wrestlers in the US don't really have a good backstep. The backstep is a fundamental movement applicable in a lot of wrestling, especially freestyle/greco.

Throws are emphasized much more in most other wrestling countries, and wrestlers from there tend to have a good backstep and good understanding of throwing mechanics.

If you watch an NCAA wrestling highlight you will probably see almost zero back step throws.

 

[EndlessCritic]

i'm confused. what makes this different from a traditional seoi nage?

 

[SummerStriker]

It's a good skill to develop at the youth level. Notice it is listed under backstep offense. Most wrestlers in the US don't really have a good backstep. The backstep is a fundamental movement applicable in a lot of wrestling, especially freestyle/greco.

Throws are emphasized much more in most other wrestling countries, and wrestlers from there tend to have a good backstep and good understanding of throwing mechanics.

If you watch an NCAA wrestling highlight you will probably see almost zero back step throws.

Thank you. I'm going to keep learning but I appreciate the insight.

 

[SFCFighter]

you don't drop to your knees in an arm spin and you throw him perpendicular to you, not over your shoulder


gif:

 

[Shemhazai]

Jesus, Eldar is a tank. I bet it felt like the arm would rip out of its socket.