Ariel: Bellator to Be Sold Soon, Shocked if its PFL

[don't ask]

Well, that kind has been Coker's problem from the get go in the sport of MMA. He can collect talent. Use it questionably at times. But his biggest down fall and this probably falls more on Viacom than Coker but they can't build the brand and that is the problem. Viacom is in a space that you produce a good quality show or movie, promote it for a few weeks and people will tune into it and buy advertising space. MMA is 24/7 grind of building awareness to the product and it never ends and sponsorship/advertisers are very short list compared to what Viacom is use to.

You say UFC is giving us a water down product but at the same time the revenues have never been higher. This is all do to the UFC branding.

It's like any business you can invent the best product in the world in whatever space but if you can't get the general public to recognize it you'll never get anywhere.

If we ever really want to see a true number 2 org in the world that is player for 90% of the free agents regardless of star power you need to have an org that has strong branding above anything else. They have to attract blow joe that the UFC attracts. You need passionate owners through and through that realize debt is going to come and pile up well before profits and success. PFL showed us that the later is what allows them to sign Francis where Bellator was like nope, too much money. But look at the run PFL has gotten in the media world from the signing. More advertising for the brand and conversations about PFL than Bellator has gotten in years. They haven't paid Francis a nickel yet and probably got millions worth of advertising out of him.

I'm not saying this is your opinion, you simply reminded me of this and I want to get it off my chest: lately I've been seeing a lot of talk about how Coker is a limited promoter and can't built a business. This is a far cry from what people's opinions were about him 10+ years ago when he had several successful businesses under his belt and had built up Strikeforce from a regional promotion to an international promotion that was such a success that UFC had to buy it. I think this new perspective of Coker is entirely the UFC shitposting machine getting into overdrive and spreading this narrative because it has been entirely undeserved. If Coker has failed with Bellator (and I'm not sure he has), it's because (as you say) of such behind-the-scenes obstacles as uncommitted owners.

But i do object to your statement that I say UFC is giving us a watered-down product. Is that something you doubt?

 

[GueseGuy]

I'm not saying this is your opinion, you simply reminded me of this and I want to get it off my chest: lately I've been seeing a lot of talk about how Coker is a limited promoter and can't built a business. This is a far cry from what people's opinions were about him 10+ years ago when he had several successful businesses under his belt and had built up Strikeforce from a regional promotion to an international promotion that was such a success that UFC had to buy it. I think this new perspective of Coker is entirely the UFC shitposting machine getting into overdrive and spreading this narrative because it has been entirely undeserved. If Coker has failed with Bellator (and I'm not sure he has), it's because (as you say) of such behind-the-scenes obstacles as uncommitted owners.

But i do object to your statement that I say UFC is giving us a watered-down product. Is that something you doubt?

I wouldn't pay too much mind to it. These people think Coker has driven Bellator into the ground yet they have the best roster they've ever had, the brand is the biggest it's ever been, and there are apparently numerous suitors after the company is rumored to be worth hundreds of millions. But yes, Coker has driven them straight into the ground. Bellator is undoubtedly worse off than they were 9 years ago in June 2014 when Coker took over.

People will always hate against any promotion that isn't UFC. People love UFC so much they are willing to disparage any competition just to prop up UFC. Even though it's debatable UFC even has better champions than Bellator at this point.

 

[m249viking]

DWCS

 

[Bubba32]

I wouldn't pay too much mind to it. These people think Coker has driven Bellator into the ground yet they have the best roster they've ever had, the brand is the biggest it's ever been, and there are apparently numerous suitors after the company is rumored to be worth hundreds of millions. But yes, Coker has driven them straight into the ground. Bellator is undoubtedly worse off than they were 9 years ago in June 2014 when Coker took over.

People will always hate against any promotion that isn't UFC. People love UFC so much they are willing to disparage any competition just to prop up UFC. Even though it's debatable UFC even has better champions than Bellator at this point.

And their viewership has never been lower.

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

So where’s the guy who said it would sell for $7 billion and the guy who kept insisting on here it was going to be to PFL at?

You can buy both the Yankees and Pistons for that money

 

[skylolow]

I'm not saying this is your opinion, you simply reminded me of this and I want to get it off my chest: lately I've been seeing a lot of talk about how Coker is a limited promoter and can't built a business. This is a far cry from what people's opinions were about him 10+ years ago when he had several successful businesses under his belt and had built up Strikeforce from a regional promotion to an international promotion that was such a success that UFC had to buy it. I think this new perspective of Coker is entirely the UFC shitposting machine getting into overdrive and spreading this narrative because it has been entirely undeserved. If Coker has failed with Bellator (and I'm not sure he has), it's because (as you say) of such behind-the-scenes obstacles as uncommitted owners.

But i do object to your statement that I say UFC is giving us a watered-down product. Is that something you doubt?

I never praised Coker back in Strikeforce days even. He is fine at talent relations but I don't think he is that great at the rest of the business. He did not build it to the point the UFC had to buy it. In fact the UFC didn't even get involved in the sale until the eleventh hour according to Coker. Coker didn't even know Silicon Valley Sports and Entertainment group was even shopping it until the eleventh hour(Kudos for Coker building it to the point SVSE got involved.). He wished he knew they wanted to sell so he had more time to get a buyer or buyers of his choice involved. The reason for sale was SVSE was taking on way too much debt to their liking. They didn't see a clear enough path to profit in their minds and decided to sell it. Unfortunately, when this happens the day to day management of the business is who takes the blame. Which in this case was Scott Coker and his team. The facts are Coker built up Strikeforce and got heavy investment from SVSE to buy into it and take it national(great job) and during that time period it racked up tens of millions in debt and game was over. Coker can operate a regional promotion and be profitable on a small scale. Coker's running track record after that is he can build an org, get talent, get some media deals, put on events around the world, blah blah blah blah but he can't get it over the hump to be a self sustain business making money. Kudos for getting to that point twice, since so far in MMA history really only Dana and Ferts group have been able to get over that hump.

As far as UFC water down, sure I agree a lot of shows are water down at least in my mind. I'm not sure in avg. joe's mind. They are doing more shows than ever before and they can't just magically make stars to keep filling these shows with. It use to be more name power was available than shows (ie:2007 or whatever). But the UFC does have the roster that if they wanted to blow your mind they could put on 20 stacked ass shows a year that every MMA fan would want to tune into. Unfortunately their media deals are asking for over double that amount of events. Even Bellator and ONE on a smaller scale runs into that. As hardcore fans we can sit here and say the UFC shows are water down junk to often and skip a watching a bunch of them. But the revenue say otherwise and in the end we are only a small part of that revenue stream. We maybe turned off, but apparently fans as whole aren't. They are bought into the UFC branding 100% at this time as time goes on some of them will be more selective and slide over to our thinking of water down. But the UFC is big enough and reaching enough new eye balls that they can continually replace those fans.

 

[don't ask]

but he can't get it over the hump to be self sustained business making money. Kudos for getting to that point as so far in MMA history really only Dana and Ferts group have been able to get over that hump.

It sounds like you're not giving him any credit for building multiple companies to the obstacle only one MMA org has overcome because he hasn't overcome that obstacle. That seems silly.

We have not seen ANYONE do what Coker has done, not even the UFC: the UFC had to get laws changed via Fertitas sitting on the board and they, themselves, admit they would have tanked if they didn't get a hit with TUF (something Dana opposed). Coker has had neither of these advantages and has built two MMA promotions into the second biggest orgs.

But the revenue say otherwise

Revenue stream is absolutely not an indicator of quality.

 

[CC27]

Cokers good behind the scenes, getting talent, dealing with them. He's taken two brands to number 2 spot but there is a ceiling on what he or really anyone in the space can do against UFC. I think he had more interest in SF as a real option to UFC and had bigger stars but he's done a good job overhauling Bellators roster.

The biggest problem with Coker is he's not a good fight promoter. You dont care what he says, you dont want to listen to him, he does nothing to drive interest in the product.

 

[skylolow]

It sounds like you're not giving him any credit for building multiple companies to the obstacle only one MMA org has overcome because he hasn't overcome that obstacle. That seems silly.

We have not seen ANYONE do what Coker has done, not even the UFC: the UFC had to get laws changed via Fertitas sitting on the board and they, themselves, admit they would have tanked if they didn't get a hit with TUF (something Dana opposed). Coker has had neither of these advantages and has built two MMA promotions into the second biggest orgs.



Revenue stream is absolutely not an indicator of quality.

Well you could argue that Zuffa paved the way for any promoter to do something that matters on a big scale. Most these orgs run on skeleton crew they couldn't possibly do what Zuffa accomplished in the world of MMA in the US when it comes to athletic commissions, educating the public, and in general just building themselves to the point that big time sponsors would invest in the product. In other words get the world to take them seriously. Even with everything they did MMA is still a niche sport.

I give Coker credit, its just is what it is with him. Bellator is just stagnate and the numbers show that. The fact that they are looking to sell or bring investors in for the first time tells you everything you need to know about what Viacom thinks of Bellator. If Viacom thought for one second pumping more money into Bellator would change the bottom of line of Bellator they would pump money into it. I think they have reached the end more or less and just want out completely or at least to the point they own a small percentage and some other group owns the rest and operates it daily. If its sold, I hope Coker sticks around as talent guy but Bellator needs someone to really lead the business side of it if we ever want to see it become something more than it is.

Revenue stream does have something to do with quality. No org is putting out knockout events over and over again. Even in the world of WWE it doesn't happen and they control every aspect of the product. The UFC quality is good enough over the course of the year to continually see revenue and profits increase year after year. Quality is also in the eye of the beholder. You and I on here are probably much more critical of each event than blow joe. But people like us are only a small percentage of the UFC's overall viewership. They got us, we are watching many more events than missing events. UFC only needs to be good enough to continually bring in more new eyes to the product over the people that stop watching.

 

[don't ask]

Quality is also in the eye of the beholder.

We're no longer discussing quality at this point.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

What do we mean by quality? If we mean the presentation of Bellator, the booking and how exciting their fighters are than Bellator doesn't have top tier quality. Obviously it is subjective but as someone who watches every Bellator they have a lot of bad main cards and some very....questionable match ups. While they have gotten away from signing past prime UFC guys they still love to go after wrestlers with fancy NCAA backgrounds that often are lay and pray artist. That is a legitimate criticism of Bellator.

If we are talking about just how good the fighters are, then yes, Bellator has excellent quality. But I dont get why some people obsesses over this. Promoting fighting and having the best fighters aren't the same thing. Rizin for example has more exciting match ups, a better direction, distinct presentation (which I'd argue is also better albeit that is highly subjective), more exciting rule set and a better/more stable control of their market than what Bellator has even if Rizin is a lot worse than Bellator in terms of fighter quality.

Having a sports promotion is not about having the best athletes. If that were the case no one would watch anything in the NCAA and the NCAA has a ton of stuff that is incredibly popular much less compared to MMA.

 

[TRVITMVNZ]

Coker can do everything with the exception of actually promoting the brand and events

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

what if it was Rizin? they're already doing the cross promotion

 

[Doctor Grudge]

what if it was Rizin? they're already doing the cross promotion

That would be awesome, though only more so if Rizin controlled Bellator's directly and gave it its flair.

My gut tells me that if Rizin bought out Bellator they'd let Bellator be relatively autonomous in the West and they'd remain kind of dry as a result. (a lot more crossovers with Japan though)

 

[Killer Kadoogan]

That would be awesome, though only more so if Rizin controlled Bellator's directly and gave it its flair.

My gut tells me that if Rizin bought out Bellator they'd let Bellator be relatively autonomous in the West and they'd remain kind of dry as a result. (a lot more crossovers with Japan though)

I think doing that would allow them to acquire much needed foreign talent, and then use their unique marketing lens to market and further promote favorites like juan archueleta to the japanese fans. builds up their international following too. just don't know how much sense it makes or how much capital they have to do that. would be cool though.