Ankle Bar? Have you seen/experience this move?

[thuegli]

So last night I was in guard bottom. I have a pretty tight guard and its difficult for people to break my lock. I had both legs wrapped around the guy on top and I was attacking his arms. Before I knew what happened, he postured up, framed his left arm on the inside of my leg and gripped my pants. With his right arm he swung it behind his back, hooked the inside of his elbow around the top of my right foot at the ankle, then pulled his arm back around to right side of his body. The effect was what I describe as an ankle bar. My foot bent until it made a loud popping sound at the ankle and now it hurts like hell! (sprain? dislocation? tendons?)

My questions:

1. Do you know what this is called?
2. Have you ever had it done to you?
3. Do you know how to get out of it?


It all happened so quickly and the pain was so severe I tapped immediately. My initial thoughts were that to escape, I could have dropped my left leg (which I did already) and tried to move around the left side of his body. The problem was that he had a tight hold on my pants and hip, restricting my ability to move that quickly.

 

[mattmania843]

i have the slightest idea, your description is very confusing.

 

[GJJNY]

So last night I was in guard bottom. I have a pretty tight guard and its difficult for people to break my lock. I had both legs wrapped around the guy on top and I was attacking his arms. Before I knew what happened, he postured up, framed his left arm on the inside of my leg and gripped my pants. With his right arm he swung it behind his back, hooked the inside of his elbow around the top of my right foot at the ankle, then pulled his arm back around to right side of his body. The effect was what I describe as an ankle bar. My foot bent until it made a loud popping sound at the ankle and now it hurts like hell! (sprain? dislocation? tendons?)

My questions:

1. Do you know what this is called?
2. Have you ever had it done to you?
3. Do you know how to get out of it?


It all happened so quickly and the pain was so severe I tapped immediately. My initial thoughts were that to escape, I could have dropped my left leg (which I did already) and tried to move around the left side of his body. The problem was that he had a tight hold on my pants and hip, restricting my ability to move that quickly.

1: Retarded. If you were "attacking his arms" how the hell was he allowed enough time to do all that with BOTH arms?
2: No, shoot me if I ever do.
3: Stop gazing into his pretty brown eyes and admiring how 'tight you guard is' and don't get into that position again. Control his posture and at least one of him arms at all time.

 

[thuegli]

1: Retarded. If you were "attacking his arms" how the hell was he allowed enough time to do all that with BOTH arms?
2: No, shoot me if I ever do.
3: Stop gazing into his pretty brown eyes and admiring how 'tight you guard is' and don't get into that position again. Control his posture and at least one of him arms at all time.

First, he is 210lbs a purple belt and I'm 145lb white belt. Not as an excuse, just to frame the strength and technique differential.

I had just failed going for a kimura on his left arm and a hip bump sweep. He pushed me back down and I wrapped him up again. That's when he pulled this on me. It happened very fast and I had never seen it before. I know I do have a problem with spending too much time holding in one position and thinking, instead of transitioning and constantly changing up attacks.

 

[DaRuckus337]

I'm trying to follow this - your leg ended up behind his back, his near arm was hooked over your knee, and his far arm was hooked over your foot/ankle, and then he just sort of started trying to bend your leg? If I am understanding you, then this is without a doubt the most bizarrely bullshit move I have ever heard of.

 

[The Colonel]

I know exactly what he is talking about. God where did I see this submission before? In some book I had then got rid of...
Basically, if I understand this correctly, the opponent in his guard took his own right arm, put it deeply behind his own back, and caught the guy's ankle at the instep. Since his ankles were crossed, when he torqued on the instep by pulling on his ankle, it drove his achille's tendon into the top instep of the other ankle.

It's a very awkward, weird ankle submission, that frankly he shouldn't have gotten on you. A more experienced grappler would never have been tapped like that, even by a purple belt. I think I saw this submission in that book my Mark (Matt?) Hatmacker, Hatmaker, something like that. "NHB Submissions" or something like that.

It's kind of a weird submission, like getting caught in a scorpion deathlock or something. Theoretically possible, but highly improbable. The purple belt took advantage of your inexperience and decided to try some weird submission that he probably saw in a book.

 

[thuegli]

Basically, if I understand this correctly, the opponent in his guard took his own right arm, put it deeply behind his own back, and caught the guy's ankle at the instep. Since his ankles were crossed, when he torqued on the instep by pulling on his ankle, it drove his achille's tendon into the top instep of the other ankle.

Yeah, that sounds exactly like what he did. It was hard to describe since I did not exactly see what was going on behind his back.

I definitely admit I have am very inexperienced and should not have gotten caught like that.

 

[thuegli]

I'm trying to follow this - your leg ended up behind his back, his near arm was hooked over your knee, and his far arm was hooked over your foot/ankle, and then he just sort of started trying to bend your leg? If I am understanding you, then this is without a doubt the most bizarrely bullshit move I have ever heard of.

No, his near arm was grabbing the my pants on the inside of my waist with his elbow on the inside of my thigh near the groin.

 

[Zankou]

Sounds like he did basically the same move as when you tap somebody who crosses their feet from your back --- except he did it from the guard, turning sideways, and used his arm. Interesting ... I suppose in theory he could have brought his leg over too and done the standard footlock from that position, in effect giving up the back for the sub.

 

[GJJNY]

I know exactly what he is talking about. God where did I see this submission before? In some book I had then got rid of...
Basically, if I understand this correctly, the opponent in his guard took his own right arm, put it deeply behind his own back, and caught the guy's ankle at the instep. Since his ankles were crossed, when he torqued on the instep by pulling on his ankle, it drove his achille's tendon into the top instep of the other ankle.

It's a very awkward, weird ankle submission, that frankly he shouldn't have gotten on you. A more experienced grappler would never have been tapped like that, even by a purple belt. I think I saw this submission in that book my Mark (Matt?) Hatmacker, Hatmaker, something like that. "NHB Submissions" or something like that.

It's kind of a weird submission, like getting caught in a scorpion deathlock or something. Theoretically possible, but highly improbable. The purple belt took advantage of your inexperience and decided to try some weird submission that he probably saw in a book.

Thats retarded. Same submission concept when a guy crosses his ankles when hes on your back. .....but, retarded. He has now left his neck wide open, his base isn't 100% AND he left as easy path to his own back.

......I guess it would only work on a white belt.

 

[TDubWurzo]

I've used this hold on white belts before. It only works once. I've would love to see it in MMA someday, but don't count on it.

 

[trunksan]

Some people use it to open the guard... a bit like a heel hook of sorts

 

[thuegli]

Some people use it to open the guard... a bit like a heel hook of sorts

Thats what he used it for. Never again. It definitely opened my guard and some. Didn't see it coming, fought it for a second and he pulled pretty tight. Now I've got a sprained ankle. Mild luckily but still sucks.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

I'm trying to follow this - your leg ended up behind his back, his near arm was hooked over your knee, and his far arm was hooked over your foot/ankle, and then he just sort of started trying to bend your leg? If I am understanding you, then this is without a doubt the most bizarrely bullshit move I have ever heard of.

lol, x's 2

 

[southjerzshore***]

First, he is 210lbs a purple belt and I'm 145lb white belt. Not as an excuse, just to frame the strength and technique differential.

I had just failed going for a kimura on his left arm and a hip bump sweep. He pushed me back down and I wrapped him up again. That's when he pulled this on me. It happened very fast and I had never seen it before. I know I do have a problem with spending too much time holding in one position and thinking, instead of transitioning and constantly changing up attacks.

Your problem is wasting your time with closed guard. Resting is fruitless and having a tight guard that is hard to break will slow your evolution and growth in Jiu Jitsu.

Just open your guard up, work on your fencing and using your arms and legs together to get sweeps and subs. If you distract someone with a heel inside their elbow and a foot on their hip (the kids call it "spider guard"), or you work butterfly or something to that effect, you have a lesser chance of being heel hooked, leglocked, toe held, or what have you.

As for your description of the move, it's pretty bad. I can't tell what you're talking about. But like I said, work from open guard. There are so many possibilities for sweeps and subs and reversals and taking peoples' backs, that it makes the closed guard almost pointless.

 

[thuegli]

Your problem is wasting your time with closed guard. Resting is fruitless and having a tight guard that is hard to break will slow your evolution and growth in Jiu Jitsu.

Just open your guard up, work on your fencing and using your arms and legs together to get sweeps and subs. If you distract someone with a heel inside their elbow and a foot on their hip (the kids call it "spider guard"), or you work butterfly or something to that effect, you have a lesser chance of being heel hooked, leglocked, toe held, or what have you.

As for your description of the move, it's pretty bad. I can't tell what you're talking about. But like I said, work from open guard. There are so many possibilities for sweeps and subs and reversals and taking peoples' backs, that it makes the closed guard almost pointless.

I know my description was bad. I couldn't see what exactly he was doing, only felt the effects. Zankou described it above very well.

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely try to focus on working from open guard like you said.

 

[southjerzshore***]

Your problem is wasting your time with closed guard. Resting is fruitless and having a tight guard that is hard to break will slow your evolution and growth in Jiu Jitsu.

Just open your guard up, work on your fencing and using your arms and legs together to get sweeps and subs. If you distract someone with a heel inside their elbow and a foot on their hip (the kids call it "spider guard"), or you work butterfly or something to that effect, you have a lesser chance of being heel hooked, leglocked, toe held, or what have you.

As for your description of the move, it's pretty bad. I can't tell what you're talking about. But like I said, work from open guard. There are so many possibilities for sweeps and subs and reversals and taking peoples' backs, that it makes the closed guard almost pointless.

I should also mention that before you open the guard, make sure you're controlling either one of the guy's arms, his head, or a combination therein. Not trying to sound condescending, but you seem like you're a bit new to the grappling game, so just making sure you know the fundamentals. But like I said, you have to be willing to try different positions and not worry about being passed and swept and tapped. It's gonna happen to you as a white belt, blue belt, purple belt, and forever and ever amen. But by the sounds of your original post, you seem content to hold a guy in closed guard.

Just try different things. Butterfly, x, spider, monkey, half, there's all sorts of variations on the guard, and it's a really amazing position once you start seeing the depth in it.

 

[Mikey Triangles]

Sounds like he did basically the same move as when you tap somebody who crosses their feet from your back --- except he did it from the guard, turning sideways, and used his arm. Interesting ... I suppose in theory he could have brought his leg over too and done the standard footlock from that position, in effect giving up the back for the sub.

I think from that position it would be more of an Ankle Lace...

 

[Zankou]

Your problem is wasting your time with closed guard. Resting is fruitless and having a tight guard that is hard to break will slow your evolution and growth in Jiu Jitsu.

Just open your guard up, work on your fencing and using your arms and legs together to get sweeps and subs. If you distract someone with a heel inside their elbow and a foot on their hip (the kids call it "spider guard"), or you work butterfly or something to that effect, you have a lesser chance of being heel hooked, leglocked, toe held, or what have you.

As for your description of the move, it's pretty bad. I can't tell what you're talking about. But like I said, work from open guard. There are so many possibilities for sweeps and subs and reversals and taking peoples' backs, that it makes the closed guard almost pointless.

I agree that you should not waste time resting, but the closed guard is an immensely powerful and damaging guard that should not be neglected. It requires a great deal of skill to play closed guard effectively, but when you do, it is devastating. Improve your closed guard and your open guard game will open up; improve your open guard game, and your closed guard game will open up. Improve your half guard game, and all of the guard games will open up. Improve your escapes ... well, you get the idea. Every link in the chain, from closed to open to half to turtle to escapes, greatly improves the strength of the links around it. Focus on a narrow area of improvement at a time, but improve everything in the chain, systematically developing strength in each area. That's my approach to learning guard, at any rate.

 

[southjerzshore***]

I know my description was bad. I couldn't see what exactly he was doing, only felt the effects. Zankou described it above very well.

Thanks for the tips. I'll definitely try to focus on working from open guard like you said.

Yeah man, don't think I'm knocking closed guard, but just from my experience, as a beginner, when I started opening my guard game up, I really started improving quickly.

There are lots of options from the closed guard, but as a beginner, people tend to use it as a resting position. I personally find it better to lose the fear of opening the guard up early in your BJJ career, and then, when your guard gets respectable, start working more closed guard techniques. This way, if by chance your guard gets opened up, you're not at a loss and you don't feel uncomfortable.

Closed guard is very very useful and full of options, but open guard is where you learn to defend a lot better and use all of your limbs together. Keep on training hard man.