About Spinal locks and Neck cranks...

[Aza]

Well, hello everyone. I dont really often come to the grappling part of this forum, but I figured this topic in specific would be properly answer here, insetad of the other areas.

I just recently started to practice BJJ (VERY recently, like, 2 weeks ago.) And a friend of mine was telling me about those neck cranks and spinal locks... And I couldnt help but feel very bothered at the concept.

From what he told me, they're banned on most of the competitions and what-not, since when done too subtely or by a guy who's strong enough it can put you on a wheel-chair for the rest of your life, or kill you.

So... Isnt it a bit... wrong... to teach people that ?. My points are...

1- Even if BJJ people overall seem to have a lot of self-control, I cant help but feel like when you're struggling desperatelly to not be subbed and get a submission, sometimes, you may forget the rules and just apply whatever comes to your mind to submit your enemy. If the guy was taught the lock, he may end up applying it and doing some serious damage, even if he knew it was banned.

2- When I questioned my friend with the argument above, he said that they're taught for self defense purposes. Well... I feel like there's no point on having to kill someone on a self-defense situation when you can put him to sleep with a choke. They're most of the times more simple and easy than those crazy locks and will do the same job of controlling who-ever is threatening you... Just not having to kill him to do that.

I dont know... Just feels wrong to teach people something that can kill someone in seconds. I get it that chokes can potentially kill aswell, but it takes a long time after the guy passed out for it to become deadly, anyone unwilling to kill would realise the guy's out already after a few seconds and let go... No ?

Note: I apologize for poor english. I'm Brazillian, so english isnt really my thing. Also, I apologize if what I'm saying here is nonesense or may sound wrong or something, as I mentioned, I'm NOT experienced on BJJ yet.

 

[Alex88]

Thats why tapping exists.

 

[Aza]

Thats why tapping exists.

That still doesnt answer my second questioning.
Plus, from what I heard, if done subtle the damage can be done before even a tapping oportunity...

... not to mention that we all know that there's people who delays too much to let go of a hold... I understand heel hooks can damage you severely too, but spine is a whole new level.

 

[Silverblur]

That still doesnt answer my second questioning.
Plus, from what I heard, if done subtle the damage can be done before even a tapping oportunity...

... not to mention that we all know that there's people who delays too much to let go of a hold... I understand heel hooks can damage you severely too, but spine is a whole new level.

You're greatly overestimating the dangers here. No one has ever been put in a wheelchair by a neck crank, and if it is possible you would have plenty of time to tap before it happened.
I don't agree with you're friend though, spinal locks are taught for the same reasons that everything else is; it's just another option.

 

[Aza]

You're greatly overestimating the dangers here. No one has ever been put in a wheelchair by a neck crank, and if it is possible you would have plenty of time to tap before it happened.
I don't agree with you're friend though, spinal locks are taught for the same reasons that everything else is; it's just another option.

I see. Maybe he just made them sound a bit more dangerous than they are?
From what he told me just made it seem like anyone can kill anyone anytime with those

 

[middleaged]

I see. Maybe he just made them sound a bit more dangerous than they are?
From what he told me just made it seem like anyone can kill anyone anytime with those

Your friend definitely exaggerated the dangers, I've only killed 3 people with neck cranks in close to two years

 

[Silverblur]

I see. Maybe he just made them sound a bit more dangerous than they are?
From what he told me just made it seem like anyone can kill anyone anytime with those

Lol, ya he is exaggerating. Watch video of people using neck cranks in competition. You're spine has some give to it and i'ts designed so that you're ligaments will be damaged before the spine it self, hence people getting whiplash a lot more often than spinal paralyzing spinal injuries. I've experienced both whiplash and neck cranks and the sensation is very much the same.

 

[shunyata]

That still doesnt answer my second questioning.
Plus, from what I heard, if done subtle the damage can be done before even a tapping oportunity...

... not to mention that we all know that there's people who delays too much to let go of a hold... I understand heel hooks can damage you severely too, but spine is a whole new level.

This is the exact opposite of true.

To ease into a submission in a subtle fashion awards plenty of time to recognize the danger and escape or tap.

Every joint subission whether neck crank or armbar is safe at slow speeds and only becomes dangerous when applied fast and hard.

Also "spine attacks" are totally legal in many non ibjjf no gi grappling tournaments, and you don't see people getting crippled by them at all.

But a competitor in brazil did recently suffer a spinal injury during an explosive guard pass.

And for the record, killing someone with a neck crank is actually extremely difficult unlike what is shown in movies.

The easiest way to kill someone in a fight is to keep hitting them in the head when they're unconscious.

 

[no fat chicks]

ya just tap if your afraid but your friend def exaggerated about them. Theres alot of neck crank or crucifix style positions that can lead into sweeps aswell

 

[ithinktheymad]

The point of martial arts is to hurt another human being. Deal with it. If you want to learn how to heal a spine take a thai massage class instead. Maybe they'll give you some tips on happy endings.

 

[Miss Click]

It's also important to learn them so that you are better able to recognize and counter them if someone does it to you.

 

[ThePainFactory]

Well, hello everyone. I dont really often come to the grappling part of this forum, but I figured this topic in specific would be properly answer here, insetad of the other areas.

I just recently started to practice BJJ (VERY recently, like, 2 weeks ago.) And a friend of mine was telling me about those neck cranks and spinal locks... And I couldnt help but feel very bothered at the concept.

From what he told me, they're banned on most of the competitions and what-not, since when done too subtely or by a guy who's strong enough it can put you on a wheel-chair for the rest of your life, or kill you.

So... Isnt it a bit... wrong... to teach people that ?. My points are...

1- Even if BJJ people overall seem to have a lot of self-control, I cant help but feel like when you're struggling desperatelly to not be subbed and get a submission, sometimes, you may forget the rules and just apply whatever comes to your mind to submit your enemy. If the guy was taught the lock, he may end up applying it and doing some serious damage, even if he knew it was banned.

2- When I questioned my friend with the argument above, he said that they're taught for self defense purposes. Well... I feel like there's no point on having to kill someone on a self-defense situation when you can put him to sleep with a choke. They're most of the times more simple and easy than those crazy locks and will do the same job of controlling who-ever is threatening you... Just not having to kill him to do that.

I dont know... Just feels wrong to teach people something that can kill someone in seconds. I get it that chokes can potentially kill aswell, but it takes a long time after the guy passed out for it to become deadly, anyone unwilling to kill would realise the guy's out already after a few seconds and let go... No ?

Note: I apologize for poor english. I'm Brazillian, so english isnt really my thing. Also, I apologize if what I'm saying here is nonesense or may sound wrong or something, as I mentioned, I'm NOT experienced on BJJ yet.

This is my experience only... The way things happen with these lock are quite a bit different than what you might think. It is very hard to kill a man by twisting his neck. I have been caught in a twister and not tapped. Around 15 seconds full on in competition with the guy trying his best to rip my shit apart. The result wasn't death or any bs like that. My pec, tricep, and forearm spazzed for the next few days. This was caused by swelling from c5-c7 resulting in a flattening of my spinal column. Eventually atrophy caused me to lose a bit of that pec and tricep. Today I am pretty much ok. It is obvious the parts of my pec and tricep that atrophied though.

Moral....it is hard to break someones neck and kill them. Usually the ligaments give but the spinal cord stays relatively safe, the resulting damage will come later. Choking is better

 

[DanOfEarth]

I was neck cranked in a competition illegally (my first actually, and the ref went to the same gym and didn't DQ the guy). I tapped, but it wasn't soon enough because it was put on too quickly.

It's been almost 2 years since, and I still can't go inverted or get stacked.

I don't think any submission that offers such destruction to someones life should ever be legal. Broken arm? Who gives a shit. Paralyzed? No thanks. Should we teach escapes to it? Sure, but in very controlled environments and the move shouldn't be something some random training partner is going to throw at you all the time, you're asking for trouble.

 

[gururise]

We're not playing patty-cake here. Of course jiu jitsu can be dangerous. Most martial arts are designed to be dangerous. Having said that, I think sometimes the dangers are overstated.

Neck cranks can, and do, cause injury; thats why the can-opener is banned in IBJJF (and almost all grapppling organizations). I was defending a neck crank once, and was stacked so hard that my rib broke.

 

[Einarr]

IMO, the best thing about BJJ and Judo is that none of our techniques are "too deadly" to do at full force. Neck cranks can't be done at full force without injuring your opponent, so it's good that they aren't allowed in normal sparring and contest - it means we devote our time to techniques that we can do with full commitment.

It's been almost 2 years since, and I still can't go inverted

Good. Inverted Guard is bullshit.

 

[BJJ Beginner]

I've been training with neck cranks for 15 years. Never once injured anybody, never once seen or heard of anybody being injured by a technical neck crank (ie something other than a big goon sloppily wrenching a can opener - though in my experience every serious injury to come from that submission is due to people not defending it properly and not taking it seriously enough to tap to until it is too late.) Hell, even cranked guillotines cause more neck injuries than actual neck cranks do - I don't see anyone calling to ban those.

I'm not saying I'd necessarily have brand new white belts doing them, but they're not nearly as dangerous to train with as some people believe. I'd be more afraid of heel hooks if I were you - you're far more likely to get a life-altering injury from one of those (and the most dangerous technique by far in terms of causing lifelong serious injury is actually the kimura!)

 

[BJJ Beginner]

IMO, the best thing about BJJ and Judo is that none of our techniques are "too deadly" to do at full force. Neck cranks can't be done at full force without injuring your opponent, so it's good that they aren't allowed in normal sparring and contest - it means we devote our time to techniques that we can do with full commitment.



Good. Inverted Guard is bullshit.

No submission (aside from chokes) can be done at full force without seriously injuring your opponent. The idea with any submission is to gain sufficient control over your opponent to apply it gradually, and in this regard neck cranks are no different from any other upper body submission (and you have far more control in a good neck cranking position than you do from most leg locking ones.)

Agree with you on the inverted guard, though.

 

[DanOfEarth]

No submission (aside from chokes) can be done at full force without seriously injuring your opponent. The idea with any submission is to gain sufficient control over your opponent to apply it gradually, and in this regard neck cranks are no different from any other upper body submission (and you have far more control in a good neck cranking position than you do from most leg locking ones.)

Agree with you on the inverted guard, though.

Except that when you pull on a muscle that is along your spine, you can cause discs to slip and other much more serious problems, before you even really notice any pain.

The spine is not something to fuck around with.

And being inverted just means getting stacked and for guard recovery. Calm yourselves.

 

[jughead1]

I was neck cranked in a competition illegally (my first actually, and the ref went to the same gym and didn't DQ the guy). I tapped, but it wasn't soon enough because it was put on too quickly.

I mean honestly though, how did you resist decking him in the face?

 

[NumptyGolf]

The point of martial arts is to hurt another human being. Deal with it. If you want to learn how to heal a spine take a thai massage class instead. Maybe they'll give you some tips on happy endings.

Dude your post was hardly called for......

Maybe I'm different, but every sub I attempt I know exactly what I'm doing. None of this "oh I accidentally put something illegal on, I didn't know I was doing it".

I understand that going for a straight leg lock can turn into a twisting one without much changing, but can that occur with spine locks and neck cranks?