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This is a long thread. I have a lot to say and I’m looking for a serious discussion. Thanks.
When we talk about the criteria to enter the goat conversation, title defenses is always mentioned. But I don’t feel the expectations of fighters in the new era are fair, because so much has changed. Let’s be honest, this sport is a totally different animal. Here’s some differences between modern day MMA, and the “golden age” of these champions.
Barrier of Entry: We used to see guys get contracts with records like 2-1, 3-0, 4-2 etc. these days to even get a shot on contender series you probably need at least 10 fights. When they introduced featherweight, Dana wouldn’t even let the matchmakers bring in guys for workouts with less than 4 WINS, let alone fights. And that WAS 10 YEARS AGO. As the sport grows, more people compete, and you’re going to spend more time just getting to the UFC. Not to mention all the guys you have to beat to get a title shot. Anderson Silva had 1 fight in the ufc before getting a title shot. Yes he had wins outside of the octagon, but so do our modern day fighters. It needs to be recognized that guys who put together win streaks of 5+ to get a title shot are probably already doing way more than most guys did “back in the day” to get a title. This is really important because I’m forced to ask questions about career longevity, and whether a guy is even still in his prime by the time he gets to a title shot.
USADA - I’m not accusing anyone of performance enhancers. I’m just not going to touch it. But all of that aside, let’s talk about turn over. Without USADA there are no IVs to help with weight cutting. This means the physical toll on your body is greater. It takes longer to get back to your peak shape, it takes longer to recover, and I’m sure the mental toll of going through the grind is much harder. Through out a career of 30+ fights, this is a form of attrition that no one talks about. I also think we can all agree that injuries and pull outs because of them are much more common. So what does that tell you about turn over and recovery?
Finances - This catagory isn’t talked about enough. If you have two guys who are completely equal in skill, talent, and physical attributes, and you give one guy $50,000 for his camp, and the other $5,000, who do you expect to win? I’m not saying it’s the only factor, but it has to play a role right? And back before 2010, the money discrepancy was even more significant than it is today. The guys at the top as a result had the best nutrition, gyms, coaches, travel arrangements etc.. Now even if you’re on a 10k/10k contract, you’re still affording more than some of the risers before 2010. GSP fought for 1k/1k (it might be 2k/2k this is committed to memory) on his debut. That essentially affords no meaningful training. Sure, now we have guys like Conor making a shit load more money then the old guard did, but, the up and comers can afford basic gym costs, can move full time (usually) by the time they are ranked, and it’s not like conors 20 million is going to training. It’s only going to be beneficial up to a certain dollar value, because at a certain point you can afford everything you’d want or need.
Depth - Here’s a fun one. I’m not going to sit here and try to argue resume, because again, the above factors are all contributors. But let’s consider a few facts.
- GSP got his first title bout in the ufc after beating Jay Heiron.
- Anderson Silva got his first title shot after beating Chris Leben.
Again, I’m not ripping down their legacies, I’m simply pointing out that these wins are light years apart from what will earn a title shot these days. You’re probably fighting a guy like this in your contender series fight.
Closing: My argument is a whole is that attrition, cumulative career damage, CTE, injuries. That’s the cost of a lot of these factors. You’re talking about guys taking on MORE fights, against HARDER opponents, who will cause more injuries, are more likely to beat them, and they are doing all of this with less resources for recovery then the old guard. My point is not to smear the careers of these guys, as I have a fuck ton of respect for all of them. But I think we sometimes put the “old guard” on a pedestal of unrealistic expectations, and set criteria that is not really the best way of evaluating talent. Asking someone to get 10+ title defenses in modern mma is a way bigger ask than it was 10-15 years ago.
Tagging a few guys I think would be interested in this: @BFoe @Paynebringer @Ironnik94 @Viking Power @krypt @Ares Black @Substance Abuse @Frank McEdgar @Arkham's Notorious Geyser
Thanks
When we talk about the criteria to enter the goat conversation, title defenses is always mentioned. But I don’t feel the expectations of fighters in the new era are fair, because so much has changed. Let’s be honest, this sport is a totally different animal. Here’s some differences between modern day MMA, and the “golden age” of these champions.
Barrier of Entry: We used to see guys get contracts with records like 2-1, 3-0, 4-2 etc. these days to even get a shot on contender series you probably need at least 10 fights. When they introduced featherweight, Dana wouldn’t even let the matchmakers bring in guys for workouts with less than 4 WINS, let alone fights. And that WAS 10 YEARS AGO. As the sport grows, more people compete, and you’re going to spend more time just getting to the UFC. Not to mention all the guys you have to beat to get a title shot. Anderson Silva had 1 fight in the ufc before getting a title shot. Yes he had wins outside of the octagon, but so do our modern day fighters. It needs to be recognized that guys who put together win streaks of 5+ to get a title shot are probably already doing way more than most guys did “back in the day” to get a title. This is really important because I’m forced to ask questions about career longevity, and whether a guy is even still in his prime by the time he gets to a title shot.
USADA - I’m not accusing anyone of performance enhancers. I’m just not going to touch it. But all of that aside, let’s talk about turn over. Without USADA there are no IVs to help with weight cutting. This means the physical toll on your body is greater. It takes longer to get back to your peak shape, it takes longer to recover, and I’m sure the mental toll of going through the grind is much harder. Through out a career of 30+ fights, this is a form of attrition that no one talks about. I also think we can all agree that injuries and pull outs because of them are much more common. So what does that tell you about turn over and recovery?
Finances - This catagory isn’t talked about enough. If you have two guys who are completely equal in skill, talent, and physical attributes, and you give one guy $50,000 for his camp, and the other $5,000, who do you expect to win? I’m not saying it’s the only factor, but it has to play a role right? And back before 2010, the money discrepancy was even more significant than it is today. The guys at the top as a result had the best nutrition, gyms, coaches, travel arrangements etc.. Now even if you’re on a 10k/10k contract, you’re still affording more than some of the risers before 2010. GSP fought for 1k/1k (it might be 2k/2k this is committed to memory) on his debut. That essentially affords no meaningful training. Sure, now we have guys like Conor making a shit load more money then the old guard did, but, the up and comers can afford basic gym costs, can move full time (usually) by the time they are ranked, and it’s not like conors 20 million is going to training. It’s only going to be beneficial up to a certain dollar value, because at a certain point you can afford everything you’d want or need.
Depth - Here’s a fun one. I’m not going to sit here and try to argue resume, because again, the above factors are all contributors. But let’s consider a few facts.
- GSP got his first title bout in the ufc after beating Jay Heiron.
- Anderson Silva got his first title shot after beating Chris Leben.
Again, I’m not ripping down their legacies, I’m simply pointing out that these wins are light years apart from what will earn a title shot these days. You’re probably fighting a guy like this in your contender series fight.
Closing: My argument is a whole is that attrition, cumulative career damage, CTE, injuries. That’s the cost of a lot of these factors. You’re talking about guys taking on MORE fights, against HARDER opponents, who will cause more injuries, are more likely to beat them, and they are doing all of this with less resources for recovery then the old guard. My point is not to smear the careers of these guys, as I have a fuck ton of respect for all of them. But I think we sometimes put the “old guard” on a pedestal of unrealistic expectations, and set criteria that is not really the best way of evaluating talent. Asking someone to get 10+ title defenses in modern mma is a way bigger ask than it was 10-15 years ago.
Tagging a few guys I think would be interested in this: @BFoe @Paynebringer @Ironnik94 @Viking Power @krypt @Ares Black @Substance Abuse @Frank McEdgar @Arkham's Notorious Geyser
Thanks
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