Turns out beating complete scrups as a champion adds to your legacy more than elite fighters

[Pious Augustus]

As a Contender .
This bs needs to stop, fighting for a belt doesn't make your opponent better than what he actually is, JG beating Ferguson is better than any of BJ's titles defenses.
and for sure better than GSP's win over Dan Hardy

Extra:

What the Great BJ could do is not the argument here, people are calling him the GOAT LW based on his title defenses they argue that the regulation of the match > the quality of the opposition
And when I argue against that they say that I'm dismissing the context even though they're the ones dismissing it when it comes to the current era, getting a title shot in this era is much harder and the competition is much tougher both in quantity and quality
hence comparing title defense isn't a fair way to assess who's the GOAT of a defensive

 

[boss429]

As a Contender .
This bs needs to stop, fighting for a belt doesn't make your opponent better than what he actually is, JG beating Ferguson is better than any of BJ's titles defenses.
and for sure better than GSP's win over Dan Hardy

Agreed, being the first guy to beat Sherk besides Matt Hughes and GSP at WW, the first guy to beat Kenflo at LW and the first guy to beat Dieago at LW and first to finish him (in the most dominant 20+ minute Title defence in UFC history only getting hit 8 times over the course of 23 minutes) isn't the least bit impressive.

All 3 were complete scrubs at the time and context means nothing. I mean what could possibly be impressive to anyone about finishing 3 guys that had only been finished twice between them previously both coming at a higher weight (Florian's coming against Diego)?

Yeah, Tony's awesome and so is Justin but none of those matchups would have been walks in the parks for them either under the same context and that version of BJ would have also been an extremely tough match up for both and could very well have beaten both.

Basically, what I'm trying to say here is what exactly is the point of this thread and why is this an issue you felt was in such desperate need of addressing regardless of the fact your argument is pure speculation at best?

 

[Make Sherdog Great Again]

Only if you're a Fedor fan.

 

[Pious Augustus]

Agreed, being the first guy to beat Sherk besides Matt Hughes and GSP at WW, the first guy to beat Kenflo at LW and the first guy to beat Dieago at LW and first to finish him (in the most dominant 20+ minute Title defence in UFC history only getting hit 8 times over the course of 23 minutes) isn't the least bit impressive.

All 3 were complete scrubs at the time and context means nothing. I mean what could possibly be impressive to anyone about finishing 3 guys that had only been finished twice between them previously both coming at a higher weight (Florian's coming against Diego)?

Yeah, Tony's awesome and so is Justin but none of those matchups would have been walks in the parks for them either under the same context and that version of BJ would have also been an extremely tough match up for both and could very well have beaten both.

Basically, what I'm trying to say here is what exactly is the point of this thread and why is this an issue you felt was in such desperate need of addressing regardless of the fact your argument is pure speculation at best?

The fact that you brought up his achievements in the ww Division as a challenger solidifies my argument further more..

I don't give a flying knee about context, just answer this one; does BJ has a better win as champion at lw than JG's win over Ferguson riding 12 wins strike (the longest in the history of the division)

Answer...

 

[Fesaine]

Quality over Quantity. Beating better competition is better than having more title defenses against subpar cans.

Another problem with the "title defense" argument is that the road to title shot is way harder now compared to the past.
Anderson silva got his title shot in his second UFC fight after beating leben. Meanwhile khabib has win 10 straight fights in order to get his chance to win the title.

 

[fastone]

imagine being the douche bag, troll, idiot that ts is...

 

[boss429]

The fact that you brought up his achievements in the ww Division as a challenger solidifies my argument further more..

At what point did I do that?

I brought up his opponents failures in the WW division. ( I would have brought up their failures in the LW division but couldn't since before meeting BJ they hadn't had any)

 

[CroCopsLHK]

Well when defending a belt you are going against someone more hungry, ideally. You want to keep a belt, they want to win it for their first time

Nothing can be discounted from prime BJ Penn

 

[Fesaine]

Agreed, being the first guy to beat Sherk besides Matt Hughes and GSP at WW, the first guy to beat Kenflo at LW and the first guy to beat Dieago at LW and first to finish him (in the most dominant 20+ minute Title defence in UFC history only getting hit 8 times over the course of 23 minutes) isn't the least bit impressive.

All 3 were complete scrubs at the time and context means nothing. I mean what could possibly be impressive to anyone about finishing 3 guys that had only been finished twice between them previously both coming at a higher weight (Florian's coming against Diego)?

Yeah, Tony's awesome and so is Justin but none of those matchups would have been walks in the parks for them either under the same context and that version of BJ would have also been an extremely tough match up for both and could very well have beaten both.

Basically, what I'm trying to say here is what exactly is the point of this thread and why is this an issue you felt was in such desperate need of addressing regardless of the fact your argument is pure speculation at best?

Gaethje and Ferguson would completely demolish prime Bj.

Penn is good for his time, but the lightweight division has evolved leaps and bounds since then. I don't even think he could beat anyone in top 20.

 

[markg171]

True, look at Fedor

 

[TR1]

I guess, look at the mediocre "wins" Jones is having ever since he popped, yet somehow he is "p4p" king.

 

[Cylence]

The fact that you brought up his achievements in the ww Division as a challenger solidifies my argument further more..

I don't give a flying knee about context, just answer this one; does BJ has a better win as champion at lw than JG's win over Ferguson riding 12 wins strike (the longest in the history of the division)

Answer...

It was literally only a division in the UFC again for about sixteen months before BJ won the belt.

But, sure, fuck context I guess...

I'll answer your question without context though. The answer is no, if you only include his lightweight championship run.

However, if you were to include his lightweight career as a whole, his win over Gomi stands the test of time. 14-1 as a lightweight, which realistically should be 15-0 as the Hellboy decision was shoddy, and went on to win his next 13 out of 14 fights, while avenging his only loss, and winning the PRIDE LWGP.

Also, Sherk, Kenny, and Diego are nowhere near "complete scrubs." It's extremely disrespectful to refer to them as that. They were all top fighters in their day, and you can legitimately only be judged in the era you actually competed in. Everything else is just make believe.

 

[markg171]

Quality over Quantity. Beating better competition is better than having more title defenses against subpar cans.

Another problem with the "title defense" argument is that the road to title shot is way harder now compared to the past.
Anderson silva got his title shot in his second UFC fight after beating leben. Meanwhile khabib has win 10 straight fights in order to get his chance to win the title.

Problem is, Jon Jones got his title shot on his 8th UFC fight and is still UFC champ 15 fights later. You can't ignore that level of quality.

 

[Adamant]

TS basically sums up Amanda Nunes and Ronda Rousey in a nutshell. Two wildly overhyped fighters that are nowhere near as good as we're led to believe. Anyone can look like a legend when facing scrub competition.

 

[markg171]

I guess, look at the mediocre "wins" Jones is having ever since he popped, yet somehow he is "p4p" king.

Jeez, why would the guy who's been LHW champ since 2011 still be P4P king???

 

[boss429]

Gaethje and Ferguson would completely demolish prime Bj.

Penn is good for his time, but the lightweight division has evolved leaps and bounds since then. I don't even think he could beat anyone in top 20.

Yeah, how do you see the #19 ranked LW beating prime Penn, or Justin and Tony for that matter?

Since the division has evolved to the point a guy with fantastic footwork and head movement, one of the best jabs the sport has seen, KO power, elite of the elite TD defence, elite level BJJ an iron chin and championship heart is obsolete and all.....

I assume you have a reason to think the way you do and aren't just parroting an absolutely meaningless and unsubstantiated line you heard someone else with no idea what they're talking about because you thought it sounded smart..

 

[TR1]

Jeez, why would the guy who's been LHW champ since 2011 still be P4P king???

IDK, he has looked mediocre ever since he was exposed as a cheating fraud.

Arguably losing fights and fighting shitty competition.

 

[Fesaine]

Yeah, how do you see the #19 ranked LW beating prime Penn, or Justin and Tony for that matter?

Since the division has evolved to the point a guy with fantastic footwork and head movement, one of the best jabs the sport has seen, KO power, elite of the elite TD defence, elite level BJJ an iron chin and championship heart is obsolete and all.....

I assume you have a reason to think the way you do and aren't just parroting an absolutely meaningless and unsubstantiated line you heard someone else with no idea what they're talking about because you thought it sounded smart..

Davi Ramos, Arman tsarukyan, Fiziev, Nasrat, Taisumov. They're all unranked but they would all destroy prime bj penn.

 

[Fesaine]

Problem is, Jon Jones got his title shot on his 8th UFC fight and is still UFC champ 15 fights later. You can't ignore that level of quality.

Wlel that's why many people consider him the goat.

 

[boss429]

Davi Ramos, Arman tsarukyan, Fiziev, Taisumov. They're all unranked but they would all destroy prime bj penn.

Good answer, just as mindless and unsubstantiated as the first one, impressive dude.

Again I ask, how exactly do you see that happening against the BJ that destroyed Florian, Sherk?

Break it down for me bro.