10-10 rounds

[Colby Radford]

Are rhe judges specifically told not to score the rounds as even? 10-10 or 9-9 .
Example: Romero vs Israel could have a couple of rounds scored this way. Alot of fights actually. Are the judges reprimanded? I know people like a definite answer but ,IMO, I would like to see more because in all honesty, alot of rounds are even.

 

[Hotora86]

Fuck yeah we need more 10-10 rounds!

In boxing 10–10 rounds were not that rare prior to 1980. In ‘80, when Roberto Duran fought Sugar Ray Leonard, all of the judges scored a bunch of 10–10 rounds. One of the judges, Angelo Poletti, scored 10 of the 15 rounds even. Another judge scored 5 even, and the third had 4 even rounds. This sparked an outcry, and from that point on judges were told to pick a winner each round, and try not to score even rounds. But why? What’s wrong with scoring an even round IF THE ROUND IS EVEN? The argument is that there’s always some small edge for one fighter or another, but my point is, the judges are human, and if the advantage is that small, can they really detect it? So I personally believe in scoring 10–10 rounds, and I think the change has hurt the sport. When you have both fighters feeling each other out in the first round, and very few punches are thrown, but you insist on somehow giving Fighter A a 10–9 round, and then, in the next round, Fighter B smacks the other guy all over the ring and gets a 10–9 round, the fight is now even on the scorecard. But is it really even? Shouldn’t Fighter B be ahead? He would be, if you had scored that first round 10–10, as it should be.
(not my post, reposting from another forum because I 100% agree)

Here's a long but old (2017) article about the issue:
https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2017/03/should-10-10-rounds-exist-in-mma

“If you’re a top-notch, A-plus judge, you should be able to discern, through the scoring criteria, who wins a fight even if it’s razor-thin,” Bennett said. “Does a 10-10 round come up? Yes, but in the almost three years I’ve been director, we have not had a 10-10 round, and I think it’s incumbent upon the judges to be on top of their game and be able to pick a winner in that round. Because one effective strike or kick can determine who wins a round.”

I asked Andy Foster, executive director of the California State Athletic Commission. He said he agreed with Bennett’s comments, adding that he typically regards 10-10 rounds as something that should be reserved for partial rounds in bouts halted by injuries or accidental fouls, and even then only if no significant action has taken place prior to the stoppage.

“If a judge can’t find something to find a winner in five minutes,” Foster told MMAjunkie, “I need a new judge.”

Horrible attitude from both IMO.

TL/DR: Yes, judges are pressured into 10-9 rounds because a 10-10 supposedly shows their "incompetence". BS IMO.

 

[Colby Radford]

Fuck yeah we need more 10-10 rounds!

In boxing 10–10 rounds were not that rare prior to 1980. In ‘80, when Roberto Duran fought Sugar Ray Leonard, all of the judges scored a bunch of 10–10 rounds. One of the judges, Angelo Poletti, scored 10 of the 15 rounds even. Another judge scored 5 even, and the third had 4 even rounds. This sparked an outcry, and from that point on judges were told to pick a winner each round, and try not to score even rounds. But why? What’s wrong with scoring an even round IF THE ROUND IS EVEN? The argument is that there’s always some small edge for one fighter or another, but my point is, the judges are human, and if the advantage is that small, can they really detect it? So I personally believe in scoring 10–10 rounds, and I think the change has hurt the sport. When you have both fighters feeling each other out in the first round, and very few punches are thrown, but you insist on somehow giving Fighter A a 10–9 round, and then, in the next round, Fighter B smacks the other guy all over the ring and gets a 10–9 round, the fight is now even on the scorecard. But is it really even? Shouldn’t Fighter B

Fuck yeah we need more 10-10 rounds!

In boxing 10–10 rounds were not that rare prior to 1980. In ‘80, when Roberto Duran fought Sugar Ray Leonard, all of the judges scored a bunch of 10–10 rounds. One of the judges, Angelo Poletti, scored 10 of the 15 rounds even. Another judge scored 5 even, and the third had 4 even rounds. This sparked an outcry, and from that point on judges were told to pick a winner each round, and try not to score even rounds. But why? What’s wrong with scoring an even round IF THE ROUND IS EVEN? The argument is that there’s always some small edge for one fighter or another, but my point is, the judges are human, and if the advantage is that small, can they really detect it? So I personally believe in scoring 10–10 rounds, and I think the change has hurt the sport. When you have both fighters feeling each other out in the first round, and very few punches are thrown, but you insist on somehow giving Fighter A a 10–9 round, and then, in the next round, Fighter B smacks the other guy all over the ring and gets a 10–9 round, the fight is now even on the scorecard. But is it really even? Shouldn’t Fighter B be ahead? He would be, if you had scored that first round 10–10, as it should be.
(not my post, reposting from another forum because I 100% agree)

Here's a long but old (2017) article about the issue:
https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2017/03/should-10-10-rounds-exist-in-mma

I asked Andy Foster, executive director of the California State Athletic Commission. He said he agreed with Bennett’s comments, adding that he typically regards 10-10 rounds as something that should be reserved for partial rounds in bouts halted by injuries or accidental fouls, and even then only if no significant action has taken place prior to the stoppage.

“If a judge can’t find something to find a winner in five minutes,” Foster told MMAjunkie, “I need a new judge.”

Horrible attitude IMO.

Buddy, you are 100% spot on!! Thanks for the article!

 

[svmVR2097]

Are rhe judges specifically told not to score the rounds as even? 10-10 or 9-9 .
Example: Romero vs Israel could have a couple of rounds scored this way. Alot of fights actually. Are the judges reprimanded? I know people like a definite answer but ,IMO, I would like to see more because in all honesty, alot of rounds are even.

Judges are hardly ever reprimanded, at least not by commissions, government officials don't get punished unless it makes them look really bad.

However when a promoter comes around and the list of judges are offered by the sanctioning bodies to the commissions to work the event, a promotion that doesn't like a certain judge can object to them being placed on the show. I don't think a 10-10 round would do that, but a judge who went against like every Golden Boy fighter on a card would definitely being losing a bigger payday.

 

[Hotora86]

Here's one from Brett Okamoto:
https://www.espn.com/mma/story/_/id/18830550/mma-do-10-10-rounds-actually-exist

Athletic commissions basically tell us that 10-10 rounds exist, but they shouldn't be used -- that over the course of a five-minute round, a top-notch judge should be able to decipher which athlete held even the slightest advantage.

I am willing to argue that a top-notch judge should have the courage and ability to say, "Hey, that was an anomaly 10-10. And I'm not going to put one of these elite welterweights at a massive disadvantage based solely on where they happened to be standing during a round in which nothing happened."

Because the difference between 10-10 and 10-9 in a razor-thin, chess match, five-round fight is enormous.

 

[Hotora86]

This is a report of judging decisions that included a 10-10 round on the scorecard.
http://www.mmadecisions.com/ten-ten-report/

Note: MMADecisions.com supports the use of the 10-10 round, or any judging system that better differentiates between very close rounds and rounds that were distinctly won by one fighter. Currently, 10-10 rounds are permitted under the Unified Rules, but judges are often dissuaded from using them by the overseeing commission.

PS. Interesting that scores from KSW were excluded because of its high frequency of 10-10 rounds. So KSW is the only org to get it right???

 

[rpn453]

. . . “If you’re a top-notch, A-plus judge, you should be able to discern, through the scoring criteria, who wins a fight even if it’s razor-thin,” Bennett said. “Does a 10-10 round come up? Yes, but in the almost three years I’ve been director, we have not had a 10-10 round, and I think it’s incumbent upon the judges to be on top of their game and be able to pick a winner in that round. Because one effective strike or kick can determine who wins a round.”

I asked Andy Foster, executive director of the California State Athletic Commission. He said he agreed with Bennett’s comments, adding that he typically regards 10-10 rounds as something that should be reserved for partial rounds in bouts halted by injuries or accidental fouls, and even then only if no significant action has taken place prior to the stoppage.

“If a judge can’t find something to find a winner in five minutes,” Foster told MMAjunkie, “I need a new judge.”
. . .

If they really believe this, why are they not firing every judge who gets it wrong when the cards don't all agree? Wouldn't that indicate the dissenting judge is "off of their game" if he can't discern the proper score that a top-notch, A-plus judge would have scored? What does that say about the competence of a judge who shot right past calling it a draw and flat out got it wrong, thinking the losing fighter actually won?

You can't have it both ways. Encourage draw rounds or start firing judges for incompetence.

Me, I believe that judging is highly subjective and reasonable arguments could be made for either fighter in many rounds. In that case, a draw is a sensible score.

 

[BFoe]

The Unified Rules states that 10-10 scores should be rare. After looking at effective striking and grappling, if there is no clear winner, aggression is looked at, and then octagon control is looked at. If there’s no clear winner after that, it would be 10-10. Can’t be expected to happen often. That said, I thought some of the Izzy-Yoel rounds should’ve been 10-10, and I’ve thought there were some 10-10 rounds in Overeem-Werdum fights.

 

[chitoortiz]

Last night's Overeem-Harris 1st round was one of the best examples I've seen of a 10-10 round.

 

[Kenny Powerth]

The first round of Reem vs Walt was a 10-10

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

Judges aren't smart enough to understand all the little intricacies of MMA, which is why we need Mir as a judge.

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Are rhe judges specifically told not to score the rounds as even?

The short answer is "yes".

The medium answer is, most judges go through BJM's judge-ref class, and he famously says he's only seen one 10-10 round ever. So they are heavily trained to pick a winner. And they usually do. 10-10's occur about 10x more often than 10-7 rounds, which is an average about 1.5 times per year (that's one judge scoring one round a 10-10)*. The 2018 Unified Rules update liberalized 10-8's, but absolutely did not liberalize 10-10's.

*Those numbers are from a study covering something like 100k judge-rounds across 3 states and 12 years. I saw it the Worldwide forum a few years ago - I think it was a thread about 10-10's. Too lazy to go find the source today.


Many disagree and wish 10-10's were given more liberally. I'm not making an opinion here one way or the other, just informing this thread of some facts. So I doubt I'll respond if you try to debate with me whether these facts I mention are good, bad, ugly, "good for the sport", "against the law as defined by NSAC 467", etc, etc.

 

[jeff7b9]

Fuck yeah we need more 10-10 rounds!

Here's a long but old (2017) article about the issue:
https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2017/03/should-10-10-rounds-exist-in-mma

“If you’re a top-notch, A-plus judge, you should be able to discern, through the scoring criteria, who wins a fight even if it’s razor-thin,” Bennett said. “Does a 10-10 round come up? Yes, but in the almost three years I’ve been director, we have not had a 10-10 round, and I think it’s incumbent upon the judges to be on top of their game and be able to pick a winner in that round. Because one effective strike or kick can determine who wins a round.”

I asked Andy Foster, executive director of the California State Athletic Commission. He said he agreed with Bennett’s comments, adding that he typically regards 10-10 rounds as something that should be reserved for partial rounds in bouts halted by injuries or accidental fouls, and even then only if no significant action has taken place prior to the stoppage.

“If a judge can’t find something to find a winner in five minutes,” Foster told MMAjunkie, “I need a new judge.”

Horrible attitude from both IMO.

TL/DR: Yes, judges are pressured into 10-9 rounds because a 10-10 supposedly shows their "incompetence". BS IMO.

I’ll take a comfortable bet that this is influenced by gambling.

What happens when there is a draw?
I have to assume the bets are returned, otherwise bookies and casinos would LOVE draws and we would see 10-10 rounds all the time.

So they pay those smug assholes you quoted above, those corrupt fucks take the money and say “if a judge can’t pick a winner I’ll pick a new judge” ie- do what the bookies want or be out of a job.

People need to realize that every governing body of any kind, from the UN, WHO, down to your local board of education are all corrupt and can be bought. Once that REALITY sets in, there will be less time wasted on debates such as these, where the answer- corruption, should be apparent.

(And to be clear, I’m not attacking you and I appreciate your examples which illustrate corruption in action)

 

[TR1]

Agreed.

And I know it is not a popular opinion, but I'd rather see more draws.

There are plenty of fights where the difference is like one or two strikes. That's a draw.
Also lots of stinkers where no one deserves to win.

 

[IIIIIIII]

Fuck yeah we need more 10-10 rounds!

In boxing 10–10 rounds were not that rare prior to 1980. In ‘80, when Roberto Duran fought Sugar Ray Leonard, all of the judges scored a bunch of 10–10 rounds. One of the judges, Angelo Poletti, scored 10 of the 15 rounds even. Another judge scored 5 even, and the third had 4 even rounds. This sparked an outcry, and from that point on judges were told to pick a winner each round, and try not to score even rounds. But why? What’s wrong with scoring an even round IF THE ROUND IS EVEN? The argument is that there’s always some small edge for one fighter or another, but my point is, the judges are human, and if the advantage is that small, can they really detect it? So I personally believe in scoring 10–10 rounds, and I think the change has hurt the sport. When you have both fighters feeling each other out in the first round, and very few punches are thrown, but you insist on somehow giving Fighter A a 10–9 round, and then, in the next round, Fighter B smacks the other guy all over the ring and gets a 10–9 round, the fight is now even on the scorecard. But is it really even? Shouldn’t Fighter B be ahead? He would be, if you had scored that first round 10–10, as it should be.
(not my post, reposting from another forum because I 100% agree)

Here's a long but old (2017) article about the issue:
https://mmajunkie.usatoday.com/2017/03/should-10-10-rounds-exist-in-mma

“If you’re a top-notch, A-plus judge, you should be able to discern, through the scoring criteria, who wins a fight even if it’s razor-thin,” Bennett said. “Does a 10-10 round come up? Yes, but in the almost three years I’ve been director, we have not had a 10-10 round, and I think it’s incumbent upon the judges to be on top of their game and be able to pick a winner in that round. Because one effective strike or kick can determine who wins a round.”

I asked Andy Foster, executive director of the California State Athletic Commission. He said he agreed with Bennett’s comments, adding that he typically regards 10-10 rounds as something that should be reserved for partial rounds in bouts halted by injuries or accidental fouls, and even then only if no significant action has taken place prior to the stoppage.

“If a judge can’t find something to find a winner in five minutes,” Foster told MMAjunkie, “I need a new judge.”

Horrible attitude from both IMO.

TL/DR: Yes, judges are pressured into 10-9 rounds because a 10-10 supposedly shows their "incompetence". BS IMO.

great post. all i would say in rebuttal, is we should consider going back to pride rules, where a fight is judged as a whole. a fight is like a story. it has a beginning, middle, and end. sometimes, the end is a lot more important than the beginning, etc.

 

[Hotora86]

I’ll take a comfortable bet that this is influenced by gambling.

What happens when there is a draw?
I have to assume the bets are returned, otherwise bookies and casinos would LOVE draws and we would see 10-10 rounds all the time.

So they pay those smug assholes you quoted above, those corrupt fucks take the money and say “if a judge can’t pick a winner I’ll pick a new judge” ie- do what the bookies want or be out of a job.

People need to realize that every governing body of any kind, from the UN, WHO, down to your local board of education are all corrupt and can be bought. Once that REALITY sets in, there will be less time wasted on debates such as these, where the answer- corruption, should be apparent.

(And to be clear, I’m not attacking you and I appreciate your examples which illustrate corruption in action)

That would be an obvious reason if bets were returned... but they are not. You can bet on a draw (and win huge $$!).

Fight Winner Live
You're betting on: Who will be the official winner of the fight. The Draw option is available live, and therefore if the fight does end in a draw, bets on either fighter will be settled as losers in this market. Jan 18, 2020
https://support.skybet.com/s/article/UFC-MMA-Rules
UFC & MMA Rules - SKY BET support

Same in boxing:

If you bet on a boxer to win and the fight is a draw, you will have your bet returned only if a draw was not an available betting option. However, if there is a draw wager available, all other bets are losers in the event of a draw.

Boxing Betting Rules | Predictem


A DRAW bet is not always available but when it is - it can win you A LOT. So if anyone would want to cheat / bribe judges and win real BIG then a draw is something to look into.

HOPE YOU CHEATERS ARE READING THIS POST !

 

[Volador]

Wish they made the guidelines for 10-10 as flexible as the new 10-8 guidelines.

I'd rather see some draws than see weird split decisions. I don't know if it would solve much, but it would be worth experimenting with. I understand that draws don't bring much resolve or satisfaction to the viewers or the matchmakers, but rounds that deserve to be 10-10 aren't all that common anyway. Would be a good last resort option for completely inactive fights or freaky rounds like rd 1 of Harris vs Reem.

 

[Oldman1]

They should just judge half a round at a time. 5 minutes is way too long.

 

[Hotora86]

great post. all i would say in rebuttal, is we should consider going back to pride rules, where a fight is judged as a whole. a fight is like a story. it has a beginning, middle, and end. sometimes, the end is a lot more important than the beginning, etc.

100% agree. Many fights start off real slow, barely anything happens for 2 rounds and the 3rd ends with one fighter dominating.

See Machida vs Rampage for this example. 2 rounds of feeling out, then Machida dominates round 3 but loses the decision due to Page's supposed aggression in rnds 1 and 2 (aka plodding after Lyoto).

65% of fans had it for Machida, so did media outlets.
http://www.mmadecisions.com/decision/2030/Quinton-Jackson-vs-Lyoto-Machida

You can see the 1st round scoring by fans:
10-9 Machida 48.4%
10-9 Jackson 42.1%
10-10 Draw 9.5%

That's an obvious 10-10 to me, even despite Machida having 6% more and my fan bias.

 

[Krimzon]

I’ll take a comfortable bet that this is influenced by gambling.

What happens when there is a draw?
I have to assume the bets are returned, otherwise bookies and casinos would LOVE draws and we would see 10-10 rounds all the time.

you can bet on Draws in MMA, so I think if it's not scored a draw the bookie keeps the money. I don't think 10 10s are discouraged because of gambling.. something sillier is behind this..