Will Start Training Judo as a 30 year old. Any Advice? UPDATE: I'm back at it!

[EL CORINTHIAN]

soon you'll be able to hit it every time
then smoother
then in randori
then in randori at will
then in randori at will and it'll feel like butter ON PURPOSE and you'll be like "...NUHUH!!" and then get all in your head about getting it like that every time
and then it'll dawn on you that you can barely do it on the other side

I don't believe there are any throws I can do as well or at all on my left side haha.

Actually how is that with you as a seasoned judoka? Do you even bother doing throws with your other side?

 

[mattemate]

3) sinking in a throw = one of the greatest feeling in the world. Yes I did just finish saying I prefer Newaza to tachiwaza but there are very few things in this world that feel better than a nicely connected throw.

Man I've only ever honestly hit a few throws I'm proud of (I'm no Judo guy lol) and I have to say I concur. It's that magic moment that everything clicks and is effortless. Feels amazing.

 

[Ride-Fly]

UPDATE

Alright guys so as the title says it's been sometime since i have joined Judo and here are my thoughts after an academic year and after receiving my yellow belt:

1) Judo is rough on the body. I knew i was in for some pain but good lord everything hurts. My frigging hands hurt, shoulder got messed up the other day and i already broke a rib! The rib issue is actually from Newaza so i won't fault it as some Judo specific issue but STILL! Coming from a history of low back issues i was very cautious not to sign up for anything that would compromise or reinvigorate past issues and overall i did say that Judo was more or less back friendly but i have since reconsidered that sentiment. I changed my mind not because of the impact from throws but due to the CONSTANT flexion of practicing throws. The back is essentially a piece of steel and as such it has a finite amount of bends before it snaps and th constant repetition of loaded spinal flexion just doesn't seem feasible In the long run.

2) I love practicing Newaza more than Tachiwaza. Truth is I just love doing newaza way more than tachiwaza and I'm not so sure that's a great attitude to have going in to class but I just can't help it.

3) sinking in a throw = one of the greatest feeling in the world. Yes I did just finish saying I prefer Newaza to tachiwaza but there are very few things in this world that feel better than a nicely connected throw.

4) I'm not giving it up just yet. I'm not going to give it up just yet but I don't think I will be continuing for years to come. I think this is a solid base for grappling and judo is a beautiful martial art but I just don't think my body will be able to handle it in the long run.


Not saying you guys care but I wanted to update you anyways. I really think Judo is amazing but I feel that between this and my true love (lifting) I won't be in the game long and I want something I can fully dedicated myself to. BJJ may be a better fit for me in the long run but I'm not done my Judo journey just yet and I may very well change my mind about it but as it stands, this is how I feel.

Hey, your story sounds like mine! I started 6 months ago when I turned 52 with judo and BJJ simultaneously. I’m in excellent shape for a 52 year old and trained various martial arts from about 10 to about 30 years of age. Then no MA training whatsoever until I started this judo and BJJ journey. I have to say, I feel ya bro! Especially with your first point!

Regarding:
1). I have never been so beat up in my life from any sport or past MA training. I’ve done TMAs of TKD, Shotokan, Zendoryu (one of the first “all styles” systems), JKD, as well as wrestled in HS and trained some grappling under Rafael Lovato Sr when I was stationed in OKC back in ‘96 (that was the last MA training I did). Anyways, back to judo- it took me a full 3 months before I wasn’t sore as shit after each practice. In the first couple months, I separated the Telles muscle from the upper, back part of the ribs after being thrown in a sweep, severely sprained my thumb from landing on it during break fall, and had constant lower back pain. During BJJ training, I injured my LCL and meniscus while tangled up in half guard, and have had sore ankles from being ankle locked. I’m having an MRI next week because the knee injury hasn’t gotten better since it occurred in November ‘18. I never stopped completely training though during these injuries. I just restricted myself for about a month with my rib injury (like asking only to be thrown during reps on my left side for example). I’ve trained unrestricted when it comes to my LCL and meniscus- I just use a medium-duty brace.

2) I love BJJ groundwork, but not so much judo Newaza. It’s funny because I play top game waaaay better than bottom, and a lot of my bjj training partners pull guard, and I can control them with positional dominance, even though I suck at submitting them. I’m getting better at submission but IMO, I still suck. With judokas during Newaza, they’re always fighting till the very end for top position, so it’s much harder to beat them to it

3). I wouldn’t know what you’re talking about as I have never had that feeling because my throws still suck. During the handful of randoris I’ve done, I’ve been able to get a few ippons against fellow whites, and a few blues and browns too. But it still felt sloppy, and not like I was in control of my uke.

4). So long as my body holds out, im never going to stop judo and bjj.

Thanks for your update (and allowing me to provide a bit of mine in your thread.). Keep em coming!

 

[RJ Green]

I don't believe there are any throws I can do as well or at all on my left side haha.

Actually how is that with you as a seasoned judoka? Do you even bother doing throws with your other side?

Yup. It's like riding switch in snowboarding - you can get around the whole mountain without ever having to change stances, but you'll be much more comfortable and able to push your progress much more quickly.

People aren't used to getting thrown/passed to their non-dominant side, and it's almost even better against people who've been training for a while because the *fall* will feel awkward and they won't be as brave with the mid-air flippy counter shit.

Here's how I play randori against:

White Belts/3-6 months: mostly trying to get them to move/try to throw me/be anything but terrified. i usually try to catch them every 30 seconds with a footsweep or hip toss, but only so they get used to the idea that yeah, contact sport, you're getting thrown, and even then i'm catching most of the fall for them since they're squishy

Yellow/Orange Belts/6-12 Months: murder them with a few footsweeps off the bat so they know stiff-arming and looking down won't save them. still allowing ample throwing opportunities, but not falling for absolute trash (if they can get me off the ground i'll land on my back). 15 second internal throw clock, either workshopping clean footsweeps, kata stuff, or left side throws with no 'oomph'.

Green/Brownish Belts/1-3 years: no longer 'giving' them throws, but only making half-ass evasion efforts. punishing stupid throws with counters. still working mostly clean footsweeps and left side, but also trying dumb shit that you'll/they'll be able to survive the fall for

smaller brown/black belts/3-4 years: trying to avoid being murdered by zeal. actually gripfighting. actively paying attention to step patterns and sequences. combinations and counters.

black belts my size: happy fun pajama playtime mostly trying to avoid seriously injuring one another

master's division black belts: depends on the shape they're in. if they're older i try to pay attention to what they're paying attention to. since we know each other know the setup meta and can feel each other's balance through our grips you start trying to play against their own knowledge. jedi shit. super fun. intensity depends on a combination for how physical their job is, how young their kids are, and how bouncey they seem, with appropriate adjustments for each.

asian black belts/competitive IJF players: trying not to be embarrassed by how much better they are than me. getting back up after all of the falling.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

Yup. It's like riding switch in snowboarding - you can get around the whole mountain without ever having to change stances, but you'll be much more comfortable and able to push your progress much more quickly.

People aren't used to getting thrown/passed to their non-dominant side, and it's almost even better against people who've been training for a while because the *fall* will feel awkward and they won't be as brave with the mid-air flippy counter shit.

Here's how I play randori against:

White Belts/3-6 months: mostly trying to get them to move/try to throw me/be anything but terrified. i usually try to catch them every 30 seconds with a footsweep or hip toss, but only so they get used to the idea that yeah, contact sport, you're getting thrown, and even then i'm catching most of the fall for them since they're squishy

Yellow/Orange Belts/6-12 Months: murder them with a few footsweeps off the bat so they know stiff-arming and looking down won't save them. still allowing ample throwing opportunities, but not falling for absolute trash (if they can get me off the ground i'll land on my back). 15 second internal throw clock, either workshopping clean footsweeps, kata stuff, or left side throws with no 'oomph'.

Green/Brownish Belts/1-3 years: no longer 'giving' them throws, but only making half-ass evasion efforts. punishing stupid throws with counters. still working mostly clean footsweeps and left side, but also trying dumb shit that you'll/they'll be able to survive the fall for

smaller brown/black belts/3-4 years: trying to avoid being murdered by zeal. actually gripfighting. actively paying attention to step patterns and sequences. combinations and counters.

black belts my size: happy fun pajama playtime mostly trying to avoid seriously injuring one another

master's division black belts: depends on the shape they're in. if they're older i try to pay attention to what they're paying attention to. since we know each other know the setup meta and can feel each other's balance through our grips you start trying to play against their own knowledge. jedi shit. super fun. intensity depends on a combination for how physical their job is, how young their kids are, and how bouncey they seem, with appropriate adjustments for each.

asian black belts/competitive IJF players: trying not to be embarrassed by how much better they are than me. getting back up after all of the falling.

Damn son! You got a whole system going there! I may have to reconsider once I get some serious momentum going!

 

[RJ Green]

when you're fresh the only people you should worry about hurting are the people you've got a clear physical advantage over. obviously don't crank subs, but you should be trying to throw as much as you can in randori, especially against the higher belts.

playing defensive randori to get better at judo is like pissing in your mouth because you're thirsty.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

when you're fresh the only people you should worry about hurting are the people you've got a clear physical advantage over. obviously don't crank subs, but you should be trying to throw as much as you can in randori, especially against the higher belts.

playing defensive randori to get better at judo is like pissing in your mouth because you're thirsty.

Yea that's a good perspective. Im going to be more proactive here. Thank you for this, I will update this thread down the road to let you guys know how it all went.

 

[shunyata]

Man I've only ever honestly hit a few throws I'm proud of (I'm no Judo guy lol) and I have to say I concur. It's that magic moment that everything clicks and is effortless. Feels amazing.

It's like the rush of surfing a wave.

 

[shunyata]

soon you'll be able to hit it every time
then smoother
then in randori
then in randori at will
then in randori at will and it'll feel like butter ON PURPOSE and you'll be like "...NUHUH!!" and then get all in your head about getting it like that every time
and then it'll dawn on you that you can barely do it on the other side

And then one day you'll land that perfectly timed foot sweep like butter.

And spend years Point Break style chasing that wave to ride it again.

 

[killakoy]

Wrestling and Judo not being that powerful for takedowns in BJJ is just one of those counter intuitive things you eventually learn to accept over the years I think. They are great to crosstrain (I've been lucky to have a lot of opportunities in my time and always took them) and they certainly help. But the idea that someone from Judo can just walk into BJJ and start dominating in standup does not materialize much in the real world from my experience.

I know you have too, but as someone else who's practiced/competed in all three, I think the reason for this is BJJ standup is essentially wrestling with a gi. Wrestlers have trouble with making the adjustment to the extra leverage offered by the gi. Judoka have the trouble of modifying strategy to the BJJ/wrestling stance and making themselves vulnerable when committing to deep throws. In the end, both arts need to make adaptations to how they do things in BJJ standup. Most of the time it means that the throw/takedown that worked for them in their sport won't work the same within the BJJ rule set.

I don't believe there are any throws I can do as well or at all on my left side haha.

Actually how is that with you as a seasoned judoka? Do you even bother doing throws with your other side?

I say that you need at least one throw from your non-dominant side. That being said, I embarrassingly have only one throw from my non-dominant side. And it's not even very good. When I change to a left grip, it's like I'm a white belt all over again.

smaller brown/black belts/3-4 years: trying to avoid being murdered by zeal. actually gripfighting. actively paying attention to step patterns and sequences. combinations and counters.

master's division black belts: depends on the shape they're in. if they're older i try to pay attention to what they're paying attention to. since we know each other know the setup meta and can feel each other's balance through our grips you start trying to play against their own knowledge. jedi shit. super fun. intensity depends on a combination for how physical their job is, how young their kids are, and how bouncey they seem, with appropriate adjustments for each.

asian black belts/competitive IJF players: trying not to be embarrassed by how much better they are than me. getting back up after all of the falling.

It'd be a blast to randori with you one day. But I'd be a mix between smaller BB and master's. And unfortunately my kids are still in grade school.

And I also get crushed by visiting international BBs and current competitors. You'd think that at a certain age, they'd start to be concerned with how many throws a middle-aged man can take, but I guess that's the downside about looking younger than I am.

 

[Thrawn33]

And then one day you'll land that perfectly timed foot sweep like butter.

And spend years Point Break style chasing that wave to ride it again.

Lol

A heavyweight at my old club once hit the once in a lifetime footsweep for ippon.... Then bruised shins for the next year thinking he could do it constantly

 

[shunyata]

Lol

A heavyweight at my old club once hit the once in a lifetime footsweep for ippon.... Then bruised shins for the next year thinking he could do it constantly

I am personally guilty of foot sweeping a weighted leg as hard as you would kick it in Muay Thai just as a feint.





To be fair though, my childhood judo coach had us foot sweeping concrete walls in a middle school hallway as a drill.

They also recommended we footsweep a wooden barrel in the yard at home.



Ahhh the Gentle Way.

 

[NSchoke]

Zankou's statement rings true to me. It's funny because it's exactly the opposite of the perception on forums (it seems to defy logic even), but I've seen it in real life so many times now it's hard to deny.

BJJ guys just have significantly better standup than people think. I have seen so many random Brazilian dudes who have little/no connection to Judo/Wrestling shut down decent guys from those sports in standup grappling it's crazy. It looks way different because the BJJ guys stall a lot, but in the end the BJJ guys defend well and even get counters.

Pretty much all the big name crossovers at a high level in BJJ (there aren't that many to begin with) show the same effect. They do not dominate the standup game and actually get countered a decent amount. For example Yuri Simoes took down Travis Stevens a few years ago in a gi match. On paper that should be an impossibility but it did indeed happen.

Judo is probably the least effective way to get takedowns in BJJ. I say that as someone who loves Judo and goes for a lot more throws than most in BJJ. But I have to recognize that it's just a personal thing that I like and not really very effective from a risk/reward standpoint.

Wrestling fares a little better, but again not nearly as much as people seem to think. I've seen collegiate wrestlers struggle to get takedowns on a lot of guys in their division even at the lower belts. I don't have a great explanation for it other than things are just different when the rules don't have the same stalling calls.

Wrestling and Judo not being that powerful for takedowns in BJJ is just one of those counter intuitive things you eventually learn to accept over the years I think. They are great to crosstrain (I've been lucky to have a lot of opportunities in my time and always took them) and they certainly help. But the idea that someone from Judo can just walk into BJJ and start dominating in standup does not materialize much in the real world from my experience.

I'm considering starting Judo to improve my takedowns, I really question the commitment vs the payoff.

I'm not sure if I've just never encountered a good enough judoka but their standup never seemed overwhelming to me. Just dropping hips back seems to kill alot of their stuff.

I think Travis Stevens is a different animal. Travis almost exclusively pulls guard in BJJ and Simoes caught him with a nice collar drag. He doesn't seem to take the stand up in BJJ very seriously, I think he's said so in interviews, he only uses the matches for training. Travis put Pena's feet way over his head twice back to back on standup in Copa Podio once, he seemed aggravated that he was way behind on points. I think he would do the same to Simoes if he was bringing heat, he chose not to.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I'm considering starting Judo to improve my takedowns, I really question the commitment vs the payoff.

I'm not sure if I've just never encountered a good enough judoka but their standup never seemed overwhelming to me. Just dropping hips back seems to kill alot of their stuff.

I think Travis Stevens is a different animal. Travis almost exclusively pulls guard in BJJ and Simoes caught him with a nice collar drag. He doesn't seem to take the stand up in BJJ very seriously, I think he's said so in interviews, he only uses the matches for training. Travis put Pena's feet way over his head twice back to back on standup in Copa Podio once, he seemed aggravated that he was way behind on points. I think he would do the same to Simoes if he was bringing heat, he chose not to.

That's the reason sports like judo and wrestling have penalties for stalling - it's much easier to stall than to attack.

 

[shunyata]

I don't believe there are any throws I can do as well or at all on my left side haha.

Actually how is that with you as a seasoned judoka? Do you even bother doing throws with your other side?

My left side O Soto Gari is not as good as my right side O Soto Gari.

My left side O Soto Gari from wrong side right handed grips is often too much for my opponent's ability to defend a left sided O Soto Gari from right handed grips.

Left side O Soto Gari with right handed grips is higher percentage success for me against a competent opponent than traditional right sided O Soto Gari is.

Superficially this does not make sense. When you consider the depth of the game, this makes all the sense.

To be fair, I set this up by attacking their right leg until they leave the left forward with foot sweeps and hip throw entries, THEN I reap that forward left leg with wrong sided grips.

You gotta be sneaky.

Don't be afraid to jack your opponent's ippon in mid air either.

F him he didn't control you, you can sweep in mid air.

 

[bboygangsta]

Increasing longevity as an adult beginner -

• Find a club with sprung floors (ideal).
• Find a club that makes good use of crash mats
• Find a club that gives a fuck about your health and safety.
• Develop your ukemi.
• Thorough warm up (5-10 mins before class warm up) and cool down (5-10 min post class cool down). Basically, Yoga.
• Take a day a week to recover. I go to the local pool and hit the cold pool / sauna / spa
• Pick your practices. Avoid idiots
• Pick your practices II: avoid stupidity (like drop knee techs)
• Pick your practices III: focus on uchikomi, newaza, grip fighting, kata. Very carefully dose yourself with tachiwaza randori and very, very carefully with shiai (comps). When I say dose, I mean the way boxers do (X rounds per week, maximum, at no more than Y% intensity)

HTH. The trade off for being able to do this into your old age is not being a dumb ass / training with dumb assess.

PS: I've broken all of these rules at one time or another and have paid the price.

Wow sound advice. Great advice right here.

 

[bboygangsta]

I really wish I did judo when I was younger but see the benefits of some throws over others in applying it for bjj .

I currently view some vids on YT, try then out at class, get some of the coaches to have a look and repeat. The ones that fit best for bjj. I dislike the butt scoot techniques from standup as I want to maintain some realism in my style.

Hence my conclusion. Sambo is the most complete martial art.

 

[Evenflow80]

I've seen this more than a few times as well -- Judo/Wrestling guys who are beasts on the ground with little to no BJJ experience.

Overall I just think different forms of grappling level out a lot more than we expect. On paper BJJ guys would be submitting everyone instantly on the ground, Wrestling would own no gi, and Judo guys would be immediately tossing anyone who grabbed their gi from standing. In reality I've found it does not happen like that and instead tends to even out in some surprising ways.

We have a brand new white belt who has extensive wrestling and he is tough as hell. I am a blue with 3 years. He competes at 195lb, and I am 170, but even with the weight and size difference, the guy is very tough in nogi and slight less so in the gi. He negates my butterfly guard very easily by crushing my legs together with simple brute strength. I still subbed him the few times we rolled, with a kimura, RNC, etc, but you would think on paper blue belt with 3 years daily training against a brand new white would be totally different.

The other thing that somewhat surprised me is that he is the 2nd college wrestler we go but honestly his standup in the gi isn't that amazing. His COUNTERS are though, like when I went for single or even double legs on them they pretty easily reversed it, but as far as them going for the same I was surprised how easily I sprawled and just stalled until it devolved into ground grappling.

 

[RJ Green]

takedowns are hard. judo tournaments are boring as shit because it's 5 hours of people *almost* throwing each other.

judo instagram is the shit though.

 

[Problem Child]

I started at 37 and still at it 12 years later. Its doable, lots of good advice in this thread.