Why do UFC fighters rarely look for the Thai clinch (plum)?

[WarriorMonk7]

Is it because of the threat of the takedown?

Seems like most prefer looking for underhooks.

 

[Hotora86]

Anderson Silva used it with incredible effectiveness. But he is one in a million... and roided.

 

[Hotora86]

And here's a few examples of what can go wrong:

https://muay-thai-guy.com/thai-plum-position-gone-wrong-in-mma.html

In short - someone who's a good dirty boxer can clip you with multiple hooks and uppercuts while you try to secure a "classic" Thai plum. Both your hands are "locked" busy holding the opponent's neck so your face is left defenseless. If your opponent can establish a crossface (gif 1) or a collar grab (gifs 2,3) then you better release the plum or risk getting KTFO.

Perhaps in MMA it would be best to do it Kyokushin Karate style - clinch, knee and release immediately after. @shinkyoku, @AshiharaFan - you got any examples of that?

 

[Hotora86]

BONUS: he're Lyoto Machida landing multiple knees without "locking" the plum.

Machida "gets away with it" mostly due to Heath's strictly defensive approach (he's just backing away and not trying to counter) but note how masterfully Machida maintains DISTANCE in the clinch (sic!) and lets go after every strike. Heath thinks every knee is the last one and Machida is ready to escape whenever he sees any counters - but none come so he just continues kneeing.

 

[Frode Falch]

Hey joe rogan. The thai clinch dont look like that "thai plum"

I call that the chute boxe clinch.

 

[Paradigm]

Hey joe rogan. The thai clinch dont look like that "thai plum"

I call that the chute boxe clinch.

I agree...none of those gifs were particularly clean technique by Thai standards. Large gaps between the clincher's forearms/elbows and the opponent. Rich had space to swim himself inside but didn't know how and resorted to the dreaded double forearm block.

Threat of a takedown prob does change things up though. Going cup to cup in MMA is probably riskier than in pure MT. Body lock is also prob more of a threat in MMA.

Also, the overall level of MT clinch in MMA is fairly low (relatively speaking).

 

[Hotora86]

Hey joe rogan. The thai clinch dont look like that "thai plum"

I call that the chute boxe clinch.

Well excuuuse me but the "went wrong" examples come from this website:
https://muay-thai-guy.com/thai-plum-position-gone-wrong-in-mma.html

The author calls himself the MUAY THAI GUY and he's a pro MT fighter.
https://muay-thai-guy.com/about
https://www.nakmuaynation.com/

Sean an
Sean is the founder and creator of Muay Thai Guy & Nak Muay Nation. With over 25 fights, multiple trips to Thailand and a couple amateur titles, Sean wants to share everything he's learned from his fights and his travels to Thailand.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just a Karate guy. You're a MT guy - maybe you wanna write an elaborate post with gifs showing how to use the Thai plum in MMA?

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Because other than Joanna, Karolina and Matt Brown there aren't really any 'real' muay thai fighters in the UFC. There is a world of difference between kicking the pads with a vaguely muay thai technique and knowing muay thai. So a lot of them guys just don't know how to make the most of the clinch, and if they did they'd probably be working from overunders and body locks a lot more to land their knee strikes and sweeps.

 

[shinkyoku]

Perhaps in MMA it would be best to do it Kyokushin Karate style - clinch, knee and release immediately after. @shinkyoku, @AshiharaFan - you got any examples of that?

You mean like:

Spoiler

Or with one hand

Spoiler

(first knee ko)

Actually most knees in knockdown karate are either done without holding at all, or with only one hand behind the head (or on the shoulder) with the other hand pushing/swatting away the opponents hand out of the way so that he cannot use it to block with.

Spoiler

 

[shinkyoku]

I dont really get why people are surprised.
MMA is not MT.
Some things simply do not work as well under other rule systems, where there are other options to counter it. Clinch range is grappling range.

 

[Hotora86]

I dont really get why people are surprised.
MMA is not MT.
Some things simply do not work as well under other rule systems, where there are other options to counter it. Clinch range is grappling range.

Yup. Here's an extensive take on the MT vs MMA differences - great read IMHO:
http://muaythaipros.com/muay-thai-for-mma-introduction/
http://muaythaipros.com/muay-thai-for-mma-differences/

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Yup. Here's an extensive take on the MT vs MMA differences - great read IMHO:
http://muaythaipros.com/muay-thai-for-mma-introduction/
http://muaythaipros.com/muay-thai-for-mma-differences/

shame they never finished it.

 

[William Huggins]

I agree...none of those gifs were particularly clean technique by Thai standards. Large gaps between the clincher's forearms/elbows and the opponent. Rich had space to swim himself inside but didn't know how and resorted to the dreaded double forearm block.

Threat of a takedown prob does change things up though. Going cup to cup in MMA is probably riskier than in pure MT. Body lock is also prob more of a threat in MMA.

Also, the overall level of MT clinch in MMA is fairly low (relatively speaking).

It's mostly to do with the take down and with lots of fighters coming from a wrestling back ground, lots of the take downs available in MMA are not available in MT because of the rule set.

I would also like to mention that outside of Thailand, clinch work is a very neglected aspect from my view point and due to the stepped access to allow you to fight full rules in most Western countries it will continue to be so.

 

[j123]

Most just don't know of it and the ones that do are more cautious, its takedown city if you're lazy.

You'd be surprised how many MMA gyms don't know how to do and deal with it. The focus and priority is wrasslin'. The "Thai clinch" is icing.

I still lol at fellas who block knees from tge clinch as defense, its a natural reaction, but its bad.

 

[spacetime]

Because the vast majority of MMA guys come from a wrestling background and not Muay Thai? Because it¨s a stupid thing to try against a wrestler?

 

[TheFakeMacoy]

Here's another example of uppercuts beating the clinch from Patrick Cote vs. Ben Saunders:

 

[aerius]

In short - someone who's a good dirty boxer can clip you with multiple hooks and uppercuts while you try to secure a "classic" Thai plum. Both your hands are "locked" busy holding the opponent's neck so your face is left defenseless. If your opponent can establish a crossface (gif 1) or a collar grab (gifs 2,3) then you better release the plum or risk getting KTFO.

Perhaps in MMA it would be best to do it Kyokushin Karate style - clinch, knee and release immediately after. @shinkyoku, @AshiharaFan - you got any examples of that?

It's 2018, most fighters can now defend a double collar tie clinch so the classic Chute Boxe plum rarely works these days. There's just too many vulnerabilities & ways to counter it, it's not 2005 where everyone panics and tries to pull straight back out of the clinch while eating knees to the face & body. You can grab a bodylock for a takedown, swim the arms inside and counter-clinch, punch out of the clinch if the other guy doesn't have posture control, crossface out of the clinch & counter, or trap a knee and sweep, among other things.

IMO the clinch in MMA has to be fluid & adaptable. Good examples are RDA, DJ, Matt Brown, and Shevchenko. They're constantly moving between striking & grappling in the clinch to keep the opponent guessing, and they're mixing up knees, elbows, and dirty boxing along with using grip transitions to off-balance their opponents and create openings for strikes and takedowns. It's more like a mix of Greco-Roman wrestling, dirty boxing, and traditional Muay Thai.

Because other than Joanna, Karolina and Matt Brown there aren't really any 'real' muay thai fighters in the UFC.

There's Dos Anjos who trains with all the Muay Thai legends at Evolve and abused Lawler in the clinch in his last fight. Shevchenko has been showing the women what real Muay Thai is, and DJ's clinch work and finishing sequence against Cejudo was also classic Muay Thai. There's also David Teymur who's shown that spamming the round kick to the body works just fine, and he's also shown decent clinch work against Vannata. I'd also note that Joanna has moved to a much more Dutch style since she switched camps to ATT.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

It's 2018, most fighters can now defend a double collar tie clinch so the classic Chute Boxe plum rarely works these days. There's just too many vulnerabilities & ways to counter it, it's not 2005 where everyone panics and tries to pull straight back out of the clinch while eating knees to the face & body. You can grab a bodylock for a takedown, swim the arms inside and counter-clinch, punch out of the clinch if the other guy doesn't have posture control, crossface out of the clinch & counter, or trap a knee and sweep, among other things.

IMO the clinch in MMA has to be fluid & adaptable. Good examples are RDA, DJ, Matt Brown, and Shevchenko. They're constantly moving between striking & grappling in the clinch to keep the opponent guessing, and they're mixing up knees, elbows, and dirty boxing along with using grip transitions to off-balance their opponents and create openings for strikes and takedowns. It's more like a mix of Greco-Roman wrestling, dirty boxing, and traditional Muay Thai.



There's Dos Anjos who trains with all the Muay Thai legends at Evolve and abused Lawler in the clinch in his last fight. Shevchenko has been showing the women what real Muay Thai is, and DJ's clinch work and finishing sequence against Cejudo was also classic Muay Thai. There's also David Teymur who's shown that spamming the round kick to the body works just fine, and he's also shown decent clinch work against Vannata. I'd also note that Joanna has moved to a much more Dutch style since she switched camps to ATT.

I'm surprised that I managed to forget about Shevchenko, when two of the fighters from my gym fought her.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Eddie Alvarez beating up Cowboy is another good example of getting owned while holding the plum.

It’s just very hard to be effective with it in mma

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Is it because of the threat of the takedown?

Seems like most prefer looking for underhooks.

If other kinds of clinches are available since there is not big boxing glove, the plum probably isnt needed. What does the plum give you that other clinches will not?