Why do boxers have such horrible shoulder posture?

[maxi diablo]

Probably lack of deadlifts.

 

[Gunny]

Ok, I'm not a smart man. I don't know a lot of things... And this is another thing that I've never fully understood.

From things I've heard and my inner logic tells me that this can be attributed to a few factors.

1) Focusing so intensely on flexing abs all the time

2) Front delts, pecs, and other 'pushing' muscles are much stronger than pulling muscles such as rear delts, thus pulling everything forward.

I don't know, it seems strange. I was always taught from a young age that traps were one of the most important muscles for having a solid punch. I was taught the traps were like the cement for your arm... The reason it hurts to walk into a lamppost is because it is held firm by the cement... And I assume from what I know about the body, having strong traps would bring the shoulders back more? I have pretty disproportionately strong traps (due to the above advice I received from a young age) and it definitely seems to show the opposite effect on posture than most boxers.

Am I wrong about the traps being vitally important in punching power/stability or am I wrong about strong traps pulling the shoulders back?

I always thought, from side view... boxers rear delts and back look like that of a childs. But maybe it's just a sacrifice they need to make to make weight and really isn't that important to performance?


Maybe someone more knowledgeable can help me understand this.

There may be another factor at play here - natural selection. It may be that forward set shoulders are an anatomical variance that provides an advantage as it would extend a boxers punching range. It could be that of all the tens of thousands of guys who train as boxers, the ones who are built this way tend to do well

 

[CaptHANDSUP]

There may be another factor at play here - natural selection. It may be that forward set shoulders are an anatomical variance that provides an advantage as it would extend a boxers punching range. It could be that of all the tens of thousands of guys who train as boxers, the ones who are built this way tend to do well

It's funny how you're the only guy that admits he's not sure even though he has a theory/idea. Everyone else just says some shit and acts like it came down from god himself.

Sometimes its okay to be unsure, and its important to realise that sometimes there is more than one truth and that there are many factors at play.

 

[Gunny]

It's funny how you're the only guy that admits he's not sure even though he has a theory/idea. Everyone else just says some shit and acts like it came down from god himself.

Sometimes its okay to be unsure, and its important to realise that sometimes there is more than one truth and that there are many factors at play.

Yeah, those responses are such a typical internet douche reaction to any sort of speculative topic.

 

[Coconutwater]

Boxers optimize themselves for speed first and foremost - Because speed kills.

 

[djacobox372]

If you're punching with your shoulders, you're doing it wrong.

 

[aries]

If you don't know what I meant by "horrible" in this context then the problem isn't mine.

Thanks for being an arsehole though. Hope you got some sense of achievement out of it, oh wise one.

Don't get salty, you asked a stupid question and got a straight reply. That you couldn't figure out the answer for yourself is your problem.

 

[PixelPimp]

 

[Sinister]

Bad posture is bad posture. There's no "bad posture for ____" is "good posture for ____." Having too internally rotated of shoulders puts you at risk for tears, as well as higher risk for concussions being as it's more difficult to keep the chin down. Shoulder position is very relevant to how stable the neck can be kept, how stable the neck can be kept is directly related to whether or not your head snaps back when you get hit. And THAT is directly related to concussions. Anyone who has ever met me in person could tell you all about my clicky shoulder that gives me migraines when I do a lot of mitt-work with my fighters. And my own teacher Mike McCallum had to have reconstructive rotator cuff surgery from lifting his shoulder out of socket too much. I have one fighter who just recovered from bad shoulder tears from this (her shoulder dislocated a total of 6 times, twice in sparring), and I have another one about to go into the exact same kind of surgery. But both of them not only have shitty posture, but were injured before I got them. One from BJJ, the other from College level softball.

Also, crunching the abs in response to body-shots isn't the easiest way to deal with them. Our spines are our natural shock-absorbers. The straighter the spine is, the better impact is handled. It's easier to flex the ab-wall, and maintain the flex as a punch lands.

But there's a very simple answer to the general question of why people (not just boxers) have poor posture. No one is correcting it. There are athletes whose posture is amazing, dancers and gymnasts to name a couple. And yes, it makes sport much easier/better in terms of comfort and injury prevention. You spend less money on the back end on massages, physiotherapy, supplements for joint pain, etc. Trainers who don't fix these things typically just don't know or care how to. Now, not knowing...well, can't really hold that against them. But not caring, that's something I sternly disagree with.

 

[loyalyolayal]

 

[DeJulez]

I follow over 70 instagram accounts from the chiropractic / physical therapy area. I can't believe how much stuff I didn't know and overlooked.
With posture I usually see a lot of instructional videos related to neck, shoulder blades and spine/thoracic extension. Anterior Pelvic Tilt pops up from time to time too.

Let me tell you something, chief.
I follow over 70 instagram accounts of mattresses and mattresses accessories and I can tell you that investing in the proper bed will save you alot of the trouble. In the mattress world they laugh at chiropractics and their voodoo.

 

[purpleheart]

No back muscles to speak of

 

[DeJulez]

No back muscles to speak of

Who knew that's what McGregor was doing the whole time.
Exposing the back muscle theory.

 

[pookiyama]

I think you're trolling. Boxers typically have underdeveloped Pectorals and overdeveloped backs. Canelo's back is ripped and wide like an aircraft carrier. Golovkin's back is thick.

 

[aries]

Bad posture is bad posture. There's no "bad posture for ____" is "good posture for ____." Having too internally rotated of shoulders puts you at risk for tears, as well as higher risk for concussions being as it's more difficult to keep the chin down. Shoulder position is very relevant to how stable the neck can be kept, how stable the neck can be kept is directly related to whether or not your head snaps back when you get hit. And THAT is directly related to concussions. Anyone who has ever met me in person could tell you all about my clicky shoulder that gives me migraines when I do a lot of mitt-work with my fighters. And my own teacher Mike McCallum had to have reconstructive rotator cuff surgery from lifting his shoulder out of socket too much. I have one fighter who just recovered from bad shoulder tears from this (her shoulder dislocated a total of 6 times, twice in sparring), and I have another one about to go into the exact same kind of surgery. But both of them not only have shitty posture, but were injured before I got them. One from BJJ, the other from College level softball.

Also, crunching the abs in response to body-shots isn't the easiest way to deal with them. Our spines are our natural shock-absorbers. The straighter the spine is, the better impact is handled. It's easier to flex the ab-wall, and maintain the flex as a punch lands.

But there's a very simple answer to the general question of why people (not just boxers) have poor posture. No one is correcting it. There are athletes whose posture is amazing, dancers and gymnasts to name a couple. And yes, it makes sport much easier/better in terms of comfort and injury prevention. You spend less money on the back end on massages, physiotherapy, supplements for joint pain, etc. Trainers who don't fix these things typically just don't know or care how to. Now, not knowing...well, can't really hold that against them. But not caring, that's something I sternly disagree with.

You have an interesting take of things but actually dancers and gymnasts don't have great posture. They have all sorts of injuries related to the demands of their art. Ballet dancers have really bad overly externally rotated legs and excessive lumbar curves and gymnasts have hypermobile backs, jacked wrists and often particularly the men a hunch back. They become like this due to the specialization of their sport. For length term health I agree this needs to be counteracted.

There is nothing particularly wrong with having a high range of internal rotation of the shoulder in fact its downright useful. The bigger problem is when athletes try to force internal rotation when they don't have the range to achieve it. This is when rips and tears occur as you are often forcing the shoulder into a position that's it not comfortable being in.

Being stuck in internal rotation because you lack mobility is different again but it wouldn't nearly be so much of a bad factor if the athlete had a higher range of internal rotation mobility. For them I believe a two pronged approach is best, tackle the issue that causes them to be stuck internal rotation i.e. weak external rotators, hypertonic internal rotators and tackle the lack of internal rotation range. Then you can achieve internal rotation healthily.

Olympic weight lifters have incredible range of internal rotation but they train for years to achieve this range. But if an untrained lifter attempts to achieve this level of internal rotation with out the necessary years of preparation they are very likely to suffer a bad shoulder injury. Most athletes in other sports have no where near the level of internal rotation that Olympic lifters have because for the most part they don't need it but they do need some and it's why there are so many shoulder injuries in sports like boxing and baseball. Developing range of Internal rotation is sadly neglected. Internal rotation range of the femur is also another place that a lot of athletes fall down, it's just not considered but it's really important for healthy leg function especially running.

 

[JohnMandick]

You have an interesting take of things but actually dancers and gymnasts don't have great posture. They have all sorts of injuries related to the demands of their art. Ballet dancers have really bad overly externally rotated legs and excessive lumbar curves and gymnasts have hypermobile backs, jacked wrists and often particularly the men a hunch back. They become like this due to the specialization of their sport. For length term health I agree this needs to be counteracted.

There is nothing particularly wrong with having a high range of internal rotation of the shoulder in fact its downright useful. The bigger problem is when athletes try to force internal rotation when they don't have the range to achieve it. This is when rips and tears occur as you are often forcing the shoulder into a position that's it not comfortable being in.

Being stuck in internal rotation because you lack mobility is different again but it wouldn't nearly be so much of a bad factor if the athlete had a higher range of internal rotation mobility. For them I believe a two pronged approach is best, tackle the issue that causes them to be stuck internal rotation i.e. weak external rotators, hypertonic internal rotators and tackle the lack of internal rotation range. Then you can achieve internal rotation healthily.

Olympic weight lifters have incredible range of internal rotation but they train for years to achieve this range. But if an untrained lifter attempts to achieve this level of internal rotation with out the necessary years of preparation they are very likely to suffer a bad shoulder injury. Most athletes in other sports have no where near the level of internal rotation that Olympic lifters have because for the most part they don't need it but they do need some and it's why there are so many shoulder injuries in sports like boxing and baseball. Developing range of Internal rotation is sadly neglected. Internal rotation range of the femur is also another place that a lot of athletes fall down, it's just not considered but it's really important for healthy leg function especially running.

That sounds good, sure.

 

[mozfonky]

i'm not sure what the guy means by bad posture, whether he means poor posture in the ring, out of the ring or both. I do know that we all give hints and clues to what we do in our body language. I've heard people say they have people come up to them and they know they are a teacher before they officially know it. cops use instincts to pick out criminals, teachers can tell who is going to be a good student and who is going to flunk out. Body language is an obvious reason for this barring some sort of paranormal explanation. I remember marlon brando being said to learn to "walk like a boxer" before on the waterfront, whatever that meant. I do think boxers are taught to keep their shoulders drawn and their chins down, cus d'amato told tyson to keep his chin down even when he walked the streets. Also, i think most boxers try to avoid conflict outside of the ring so they don't do any of the chest puffing that most men do. It's kind of an act but it does prevent some problems. I remember one guy fellow martial artist said I acted meek, it didn't bother me, i don't see any reason to be obnoxious, we have more than enough of those in the world and most of them ain't shit.

 

[Sunfish]

i'm not sure what the guy means by bad posture, whether he means poor posture in the ring, out of the ring or both. I do know that we all give hints and clues to what we do in our body language. I've heard people say they have people come up to them and they know they are a teacher before they officially know it. cops use instincts to pick out criminals, teachers can tell who is going to be a good student and who is going to flunk out. Body language is an obvious reason for this barring some sort of paranormal explanation. I remember marlon brando being said to learn to "walk like a boxer" before on the waterfront, whatever that meant. I do think boxers are taught to keep their shoulders drawn and their chins down, cus d'amato told tyson to keep his chin down even when he walked the streets. Also, i think most boxers try to avoid conflict outside of the ring so they don't do any of the chest puffing that most men do. It's kind of an act but it does prevent some problems. I remember one guy fellow martial artist said I acted meek, it didn't bother me, i don't see any reason to be obnoxious, we have more than enough of those in the world and most of them ain't shit.

And don't kiss Heath herring when the ref is giving instructions.

 

[Sinister]

You have an interesting take of things but actually dancers and gymnasts don't have great posture. They have all sorts of injuries related to the demands of their art. Ballet dancers have really bad overly externally rotated legs and excessive lumbar curves and gymnasts have hypermobile backs, jacked wrists and often particularly the men a hunch back. They become like this due to the specialization of their sport. For length term health I agree this needs to be counteracted.

There is nothing particularly wrong with having a high range of internal rotation of the shoulder in fact its downright useful. The bigger problem is when athletes try to force internal rotation when they don't have the range to achieve it. This is when rips and tears occur as you are often forcing the shoulder into a position that's it not comfortable being in.

Being stuck in internal rotation because you lack mobility is different again but it wouldn't nearly be so much of a bad factor if the athlete had a higher range of internal rotation mobility. For them I believe a two pronged approach is best, tackle the issue that causes them to be stuck internal rotation i.e. weak external rotators, hypertonic internal rotators and tackle the lack of internal rotation range. Then you can achieve internal rotation healthily.

Olympic weight lifters have incredible range of internal rotation but they train for years to achieve this range. But if an untrained lifter attempts to achieve this level of internal rotation with out the necessary years of preparation they are very likely to suffer a bad shoulder injury. Most athletes in other sports have no where near the level of internal rotation that Olympic lifters have because for the most part they don't need it but they do need some and it's why there are so many shoulder injuries in sports like boxing and baseball. Developing range of Internal rotation is sadly neglected. Internal rotation range of the femur is also another place that a lot of athletes fall down, it's just not considered but it's really important for healthy leg function especially running.

Specific injuries are indicative of poor posture. That injuries occur at all is not. And I live with a dancer, I don't know any dancers who have forced externally rotated hips. Typically their ROM is greater in both directions, both internal and external. I trained a male gymnast, his posture was as close to perfect as I've ever seen. Sure that could depend all on the instructor, but as a general basic principal these athletes have to assume positions of high ROM, thus, they get taught how to correct their posture. If they neglect it, injury is bound to happen. But then again if they slam onto the ground or catch an apparatus improperly, they're also bound to be injured.

And no, there's nothing particularly useful about having highly internally rotated shoulders. Especially when they're STUCK in that position. Shoulders are not meant to bear weight, no rotational joints are really. The hips can only perform this task because they're surrounded with very big strong muscle systems. However, with the shoulders, if you throw a punch with strain on the joint itself a tear is bound to happen. I've seen it happen myself. As I indicated in my last post, I've had to deal with this type of injury quite a bit as a trainer. When the shoulder remains in the socket fully, the back and rotation of the hips can be used to better deliver force of the punch and body weight behind it, without the shoulder needing to bear much pressure at all. Furthermore, it's MUCH easier to keep your chin down and neck stable. Don't take my word for it, though, anyone reading this just put your hands up and then push your shoulders forward and try to tuck your chin down to your collarbone. You should notice discomfort, specifically along the back of the neck. Now, pull your shoulders back so they sit right in the sockets and then tuck the chin. You should notice it's much easier to do with much less strain on the neck. Now imagine doing either of those WHILE being punched in the face.

 

[aries]

Specific injuries are indicative of poor posture. That injuries occur at all is not. And I live with a dancer, I don't know any dancers who have forced externally rotated hips. Typically their ROM is greater in both directions, both internal and external. I trained a male gymnast, his posture was as close to perfect as I've ever seen. Sure that could depend all on the instructor, but as a general basic principal these athletes have to assume positions of high ROM, thus, they get taught how to correct their posture. If they neglect it, injury is bound to happen. But then again if they slam onto the ground or catch an apparatus improperly, they're also bound to be injured.

And no, there's nothing particularly useful about having highly internally rotated shoulders. Especially when they're STUCK in that position. Shoulders are not meant to bear weight, no rotational joints are really. The hips can only perform this task because they're surrounded with very big strong muscle systems. However, with the shoulders, if you throw a punch with strain on the joint itself a tear is bound to happen. I've seen it happen myself. As I indicated in my last post, I've had to deal with this type of injury quite a bit as a trainer. When the shoulder remains in the socket fully, the back and rotation of the hips can be used to better deliver force of the punch and body weight behind it, without the shoulder needing to bear much pressure at all. Furthermore, it's MUCH easier to keep your chin down and neck stable. Don't take my word for it, though, anyone reading this just put your hands up and then push your shoulders forward and try to tuck your chin down to your collarbone. You should notice discomfort, specifically along the back of the neck. Now, pull your shoulders back so they sit right in the sockets and then tuck the chin. You should notice it's much easier to do with much less strain on the neck. Now imagine doing either of those WHILE being punched in the face.

I've known quite a few ballet dancers in my time and they all had overly externally rotated femur and they all exhibited the 'duck' walk. Easiest way to spot a ballerina is the duck walk.

Have a good range of internal rotation is beneficial for lots of things because it allows the athlete to go into internal rotation WITHOUT compromising their bio mechanics like shrugging the shoulder up and out of the socket. Having a good level of internal rotation means you can keep the shoulder sat down in the socket in a stable position. I've worked on my internal rotation myself because I use it for snatches and my shoulders which used to give me problems are now healthier than ever. Don't take my word for it all this stuff comes from Kelly Starrett who's got a PhD in the subject.

And your test for tucking the chin shows a positive for someone who lacks enough range of internal rotation. If you had good range you'd be able to rotate your shoulders forward while still maintaining the shoulder back in the socket. IF the shouder comes out of the socket then you need to work on your internal rotation range.