Who's the greatest heavyweight boxer?

Discussion in 'Boxing Discussion' started by MXZT, Oct 27, 2018.

?

Who's the greatest heavyweight boxer?

  1. Rocky Marciano

  2. Muhammad Ali

  3. Jack Dempsey

  4. Joe Louis

  5. George Foreman

  6. Mike Tyson

  7. Joe Frazier

  8. Larry Holmes

  9. Evander Holyfield

  10. Lennox Lewis

  11. John L. Sullivan

  12. Jack Johnson

  13. Gene Tunney

  14. Sonny Liston

  15. Wladimir Klitschko

  16. Max Schmeling

  17. Jersey Joe Walcott

  18. Ezzard Charles

  19. Archie Moore

  20. Max Baer

  21. Floyd Patterson

  22. Ken Norton

  23. Vitali Klitschko

  24. Jim Braddock

  25. James J. Jeffries

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. treelo

    treelo Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2001
    Messages:
    5,221
    Likes Received:
    1,192
    So explain the bruising and the cut on his cheek...have you watched the fight?

    And "a couple of grazing shots"?

    So basically, one boxer managed to punch another boxer in the face with his glove, and completely fucked his face up, but you are trying to dismiss it as it was a "couple of grazing shots"?

    Both of these guys landed fucking bombs on each other in this fight, its the best HW fight i have ever seen live due to the back and forth nature of the fight, take your head out your ass and actually see it for what it was.
     
  2. Philtard

    Philtard Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    Messages:
    6,423
    Likes Received:
    8,664
    Location:
    London England blad
    I got to say I rewstched it recently and thought exactly the same as you when I watched it live.. however Lewis was coming back and I think won the last couple of rounds for sure.
     
  3. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    Lewis landed a hard flush shots to his cheek. I never said he didn't land any flush shots, I said the cut that ended the fight wasn't a flush shot.

    You are assuming a lot about what I haven't said.

    I thought Vitali was up either 4-5 rounds to 1-2.
     
  4. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    I thought he won 1-2 rounds towards the end of the fight too. All I said was Vitali was winning and the fight was stopped due to a cut from a grazing shot, everyone is assuming i'm saying stuff like Lewis never landed hard shots or never won a round when I never said any of that.

    It would be nice if everyone stopped assuming my opinions on things I have not mentioned.
     
  5. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    UK
    It wasn't a grazing shot. It was a big solid right hand that rocked Vitalis head back. There was nothing grazing about it. Don't believe me? Watch it yourself (it's timestamped). It's the first big right hand that Lennox lands at the beginning of the third round. Nothing grazing about it.

     
    PolarBearPaulVarelans and MXZT like this.
  6. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    That shot looks like it's the one that caused the brusing under his eye, not the cut above it, watch the video yourself, look where it lands, it hits his cheek not his brow. You can't tell what caused the cut to his brow from this angle, Klitchko's back is to us for a while and their heads are close together and both are landing punches.

    If you can find a better angle, I'm willing to admit i'm wrong but this video shows Lewis landing a hard shot to Vitali's left cheek then they both have their heads close together a lot and both are landing shots then we finally see his face after they trade multiple shots and he's cut.

    It could have been that shot but it also could have been one of the other shots that weren't flush to his cheek. You can't tell in this video.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  7. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    UK
    The damage is to Vitalis left side. Lewis lands no other right hands after this one to cause the damage. The next thing we see that Vitali clearly has a cut above his left eye. Their heads are in close at some points but the referee is there all the time and he declared Lewis the winner because in his view the cut was caused by a punch.
     
  8. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    Wrong, watch it again, he lands a right hand right after the first one in the first few seconds from your timestamp, the second shot also looks like it lands on the brow while the first hits his cheek, their heads also touch a few times. Like I said, it's impossible to tell what caused the cut from the video you posted and the big right that landed flush landed on his left cheek, not his brow.

    We would need video from the other side of them to determine what caused the cut above his eye.
     
  9. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    UK
    No you are wrong. There is no big right hand after that one lands and the cut is spotted. He throws a light right hook from a tie up but that had nothing on it. That big shot I timestamped there is no way you can tell if it landed on his cheek or brow, the image quality just isn't there. BUT what you can say is that there is no other big right hand after that one lands and the cut is spotted. Also immediately after that big right hand the referee has a good look at Vitali's face which I think is because he's looking at the cut that has opened up.
     
    treelo and PolarBearPaulVarelans like this.
  10. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    I didn't say there was a second big right hand. I said there was a second right hand after the first one which lands on Vitali's left brow after the first one lands on his cheek. It's when they are in the clinch, in the first few seconds from your timestamp. Watch the video again. Lewis lands 2 right hands, the first one being to Vitali's cheek and the second one being to his left brow and their heads touch multiple times before we see the cut.

    If you have a video from the other side we could see what caused the cut.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  11. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    UK
    We aren't going to agree on this. But that second right hand was an arm punch with nothing on it. No way it could have opened up that massive cut. As you say their heads do touch but the ref didn't call it for a head clash, he deemed it the result of a punch. And since he clearly looked at Vitail's face after that first punch I'm going with the refs call not yours.
     
    PolarBearPaulVarelans likes this.
  12. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    That's why I think it's the one that caused the cut, it was a right hook that didn't land flush and it landed exactly where the cut is. The first shot lands flush to Vitali's left cheek.

    I already said that my opinion is that cuts happen way more often in boxing from grazing shots and the grazing shot that landed on his brow was the second one, not the first that landed on his cheek.

    The ref also doesn't look at Vitali's face till after both right hands land and their heads are close together, there is literally no way of knowing what caused the cut from this video, it's just educated guessing and could have been either right hand, it's not like the ref looked at his face right after the first right hand, it's after three things that could have caused the cut(i doubt it was a headbutt though).
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  13. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    UK
    The second right you are talking of had no power on it whatsoever. And you can't see from the video where it lands on his face nor the first one for that matter other than to say it landed on the left hand side of his face. Plus it's not a 'grazing' shot as you seem to be clinging onto. There is no way that second arm punch caused that large cut. It seems asinine to believe that the second very weak punch caused that damage when the previous right hand was a very big punch with a lot of power in it and it landed in the target area. But if you don't want to believe that, then that's fine with me as it's pretty obvious from the video that it was the first right hand that caused the damage.
     
    PolarBearPaulVarelans likes this.
  14. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    Grazing shots cause cuts way more than flush shots, and you can clearly see where the second shot lands, the first one looks like it's to his cheek but it's harder to tell and either one could have caused the cut(most cuts in boxing I have seen come from the side of the gloves landing and the right hook looks to me like more of the side of the glove hit Vitali than the first one) I think it was the second one cause that one clearly landed where the cut was and the first one looks like it hit Vitali's cheek where he got brusied.

    Could be either shot but i'm leaning towards the second one due to where it landed and how it landed.
     
  15. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    UK
    The second shot had nothing on it. It was a weak arm punch. No way it opened up that huge cut.
     
  16. NoBiasJustMMA

    NoBiasJustMMA Gold Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2010
    Messages:
    22,247
    Likes Received:
    3,493
    Location:
    Maryland
    We have a fundamental disagreement on what causes cuts in boxing, you think flush shots do it, I think it happens when the side of the glove makes contact because someone is being hit with something that had an edge rather than a surface with no edges(sharp vs blunt). We aren't going to agree and unless you find video from the opposite angle you can't tell what caused it.
     
  17. aries

    aries Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,347
    Likes Received:
    2,014
    Location:
    UK
    Yeah but your whole premise is that a flush shot can't cause a cut, but personally after having suffered cuts while boxing I know full well that a flush shot can cause a cut. Leather gloves grip skin and when a punch comes the skin can easily be torn as the leather 'grabs' the skin. The first shot he takes comes in at an oblique angle, that could easily cause a cut. You claim it's the second shot that did the damage but it's clear from the footage that the second shot had no power in it. But as you say we are not going to agree so I'll leave it at that.
     
  18. MXZT

    MXZT Purple Belt Platinum Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,406
    Likes Received:
    3,189
    From my perspective from that video angle it does look he got cut by a flush shot to the left side of Vitali face. And than you see the cut and blood shortly after. So yeah I don't think it was a graze but a clear flush shot to the face.
     
    aries and PolarBearPaulVarelans like this.
  19. PolarBearPaulVarelans

    PolarBearPaulVarelans Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2018
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    693
    The argument that Vitali was better than Lennox is silly.

    Lennox was 3 months shy of his 38th birthday, with noticeable degradation of timing and reactions in his fight a year earlier against Tyson, while weighing in at a career-high 256 pounds, at least 15 pounds heavier than his best weight, a sure a sign as any that he was woefully out of shape.

    Despite this, after losing the early rounds, Lennox stabilized, with a close fifth round (I scored it for Lennox, as did one of the judges) and clearly winning the sixth. (All three judges scored it for Lennox) Oh yeah, and he landed the most damaging shots which stopped the fights due to the buckets of blood from Vitali.

    Even if you hypothetically give Vitali better skin, it seems very likely he still loses the fight by either late knockout (Lennox was defiitely hurting Vitali in the 6th round) or decision. All this occurring when Vitali was in his prime (a month short of his 32nd birthday) and Lennox was old and out-of-shape.

    How in the world do you extrapolate that to Vitali being better?

    At least with Wladimir, him and Lennox never fought, so it's not directly refutable.
     
    MXZT likes this.
  20. Alcibiades007

    Alcibiades007 White Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2018
    Messages:
    91
    Likes Received:
    66
    Vitali would have won that fight. That much peeps must concede. But prime Lennox would be a different story.
     

Share This Page