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Who do you believe is the most fascinating historical figure?
- Thread starter Takes_Two_To_Tango
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I think politics generally likes to attract mediocrity. There is a lot to say about people not wanting to vote for people that don't share a base with them. Hitler was known to be awkward and either not knowing of conventional manners and greatings or had a disdain for them. Bush Jr. changed his accent from when he was a Gov. of Texas to when he ran for president and all of a sudden found a Texas twang. Kerry likely would have been a good president but reeked of educated North eastern elite. Nixon resented everyone. Lyndon Johnson was school teacher before he went into politics. FDR was brilliant. Same with Obama. Look at how much crap Obama got for reading speeches he wrote vs Mush Mouth 45. There is a segment of the population that think that someone has to be at their level to consider their wants.
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I'd go with Stalin. This guy was 10 times the psychopath Hitler was, but rarely seems to get mentioned. 30M+ murders attributed to him. It was death or gulag during his reign to anyone in opposition.
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The Pied Piper of Hamelin
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Speaking only for myself, I'd draw a distinction between significant and fascinating. Now, it's impossible to name just one as the absolute top since there are so many, but I would put Cleopatra very high on my list and she doesn't even make it onto this one.
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Frank Dux
History can be divided into two parts: before frank dux and after frank dux.
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I didn't examine it too closely but I bet Hirohito isn't on it either.
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Aptitude does not equal intelligence.
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that guy is in a mental hospital now because he was found unfit to stand trial for a bunch of rapes he did. you think the guy would be happy, having had MORE than his fair share of ladies. wtf he raping for?
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Hitler's IQ is usually estimated at around 140. He was lucky to get where he did but very talented as well. IIRC all the top Nazis either had their IQs tested if they were captured, or estimated if they were dead, and got high results. Goebbels had a PhD at 24 and wrote 14 books. Hitler also was a well above average soldier, winning the Iron Cross Second Class and First Class, and being shot and gassed (in separate incidents).
/
There seems to be a bit of a correlation between becoming a dictator and being an ethnic/national outsider: Hitler was Austrian, Lenin part Jewish, part something else, part Russian, Stalin Georgian, Napoleon Italian-Corsican, Mao had some non-Han blood and spoke in a thick rural accent. Genghis Khan was hapa. There are lots of examples of them not being ethnic/national outsiders of course, but outsiders seem to be overrepresented.
While we're on the subject four of the first six Finnish prime ministers, including national hero Mannerheim, were ethnic Swedes (I know Mannerheim had some German ancestry - the Germans seem to have been assimilated into the Swedes in general in Finland).
Pretty biased list. Nevertheless it is difficult to avoid the stark and now, for most, uncomfortable and politically inconvenient, implications about ethnic differences it exposes:
USA 24
UK 19
Germany 11
Ancient Rome/Italy 9
France 8
Ancient Greece 5
Israel 4
Russia/USSR 3
Austria 2
India 2
Netherlands 2
Poland 2
Saudi Arabia 2
Algeria 1
Denmark 1
Mongolia 1
Serbia 1
Sweden 1
Spain 1
Switzerland 1
A lot of the nationalities are a tangled skein; I made my best call.
UK 19
Germany 11
Ancient Rome/Italy 9
France 8
Ancient Greece 5
Israel 4
Russia/USSR 3
Austria 2
India 2
Netherlands 2
Poland 2
Saudi Arabia 2
Algeria 1
Denmark 1
Mongolia 1
Serbia 1
Sweden 1
Spain 1
Switzerland 1
A lot of the nationalities are a tangled skein; I made my best call.
Alexander the Great = Greek, I think this is a stronger claim than 'Macedonian'.
Biblical personalities, of questionable historicity, are down as 'Israel'.
Buddha had blue eyes, still down as Indian. I know there are still blue eyed Indians today but not many.
Calvin moved to Switzerland at 25, however I left him as French.
Charles V spent his life on the road so I just assigned him as Dutch. Royal is kind of its own ethnicity imo.
Copernicus was an ethnic German but I assigned him Poland (that's where he was from and mostly lived).
Einstein is down for Germany despite being a Jew who moved to Switzerland, renouncing his German citizenship, at 16, then returned to Germany, taking up citizenship again, at 35, then moved to the USA at 54 and took American citizenship at 61, after presumably illegally overstaying his visa.
Genghis Khan had red hair and green eyes, despite the Postmodern denials - still down as Mongolian.
Hitler = German
Marx = Germany, although he was a Jew who also lived in France and Belgium before moving to London at 31
Mohammed and Ali = Saudi Arabia
Napoleon is down for France despite being an ethnic Italian who was born one year after Corsica was handed over to France.
Oscar Wilde is down for the UK as he was Anglo-Irish and all Ireland was in the UK during his brief lifetime.
Rousseau spent a lot of time in France and the UK but is just down as Swiss.
Tesla was born in the Austrian Empire in an area now in Croatia, and moved to the USA at 28 and took US citizenship. He was an ethnic Serb, so I assigned him Serbia.
Van Gogh I think spent most of his short life in France, Belgium and the UK. I left him as Dutch. The most insane person in this list, with Joan of Arc second.
William the Conqueror - this wasn't easy - I assigned him Denmark.
Note all the Americans have British names except Kennedy and Reagan, which are Irish (closest thing). 'American' used to mean ethnically British (with a few exceptions of course), before most people decided the definition was expanded to include everyone present. Even the people born before US independence have been assigned USA.
I don't think there's much of an ethnic difference between Austria, Germany and the Netherlands either, especially in terms of the people in this list, nevertheless I have put them separately.
The populations of Ancient Greece and Rome have also changed a lot to the current Greek and Italian populations, which is also denied by the Woke zealots, but I have just counted them together.
Biblical personalities, of questionable historicity, are down as 'Israel'.
Buddha had blue eyes, still down as Indian. I know there are still blue eyed Indians today but not many.
Calvin moved to Switzerland at 25, however I left him as French.
Charles V spent his life on the road so I just assigned him as Dutch. Royal is kind of its own ethnicity imo.
Copernicus was an ethnic German but I assigned him Poland (that's where he was from and mostly lived).
Einstein is down for Germany despite being a Jew who moved to Switzerland, renouncing his German citizenship, at 16, then returned to Germany, taking up citizenship again, at 35, then moved to the USA at 54 and took American citizenship at 61, after presumably illegally overstaying his visa.
Genghis Khan had red hair and green eyes, despite the Postmodern denials - still down as Mongolian.
Hitler = German
Marx = Germany, although he was a Jew who also lived in France and Belgium before moving to London at 31
Mohammed and Ali = Saudi Arabia
Napoleon is down for France despite being an ethnic Italian who was born one year after Corsica was handed over to France.
Oscar Wilde is down for the UK as he was Anglo-Irish and all Ireland was in the UK during his brief lifetime.
Rousseau spent a lot of time in France and the UK but is just down as Swiss.
Tesla was born in the Austrian Empire in an area now in Croatia, and moved to the USA at 28 and took US citizenship. He was an ethnic Serb, so I assigned him Serbia.
Van Gogh I think spent most of his short life in France, Belgium and the UK. I left him as Dutch. The most insane person in this list, with Joan of Arc second.
William the Conqueror - this wasn't easy - I assigned him Denmark.
Note all the Americans have British names except Kennedy and Reagan, which are Irish (closest thing). 'American' used to mean ethnically British (with a few exceptions of course), before most people decided the definition was expanded to include everyone present. Even the people born before US independence have been assigned USA.
I don't think there's much of an ethnic difference between Austria, Germany and the Netherlands either, especially in terms of the people in this list, nevertheless I have put them separately.
The populations of Ancient Greece and Rome have also changed a lot to the current Greek and Italian populations, which is also denied by the Woke zealots, but I have just counted them together.
Give us a Top 10!
Would you say that war with the USSR was inevitable, and he might as well have got his retaliation in first? And if the USA was going to attack Germany, even if Germany wasn't at war with the USSR, it would make sense to try to take them on one at a time instead of at the same time.
Do you read in Russian?
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I read war and peace in russian as a teen
Good book and i liked lots of its themes
That being said everything conserning napoleon and great man theory comes off like absolute bullshit , you can just feel the bias and tolstois hate for napoleon in real life and he just decides to branch his hate to all "great men"
Everything military related is also kinda bad (he describes battles well though)
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Can you provide a link? Because I've never read or heard of Hitler's IQ being estimated anywhere near 140. IIRC, Goering had his IQ tested while awaiting trial in Nuremberg, and scored 138. I believe only one senior Nazi scored higher, and it wasn't Hitler.
Hitler's military career is still a topic of debate among professional Historians to this day. While there is no doubt he saw action in several major battles, including Ypres, he also spent a considerable amount of his service at Regimental HQ, acting as a messenger. Some people believe Hitler's Iron Cross awards were partly gained through friendship with senior officers at RHQ.
Ironically, the officer who recommended Hitler for his Iron Cross 1st Class was Jewish.
I'm not saying Hitler wasn't a decent low-ranking soldier. The man's crimes are vile enough without resorting to superious reasons to detest him. But as a high ranking military commander, he was a bigger threat to the Nazis themselves than the Allies.
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Aptitude is just a part of competence, the rest of competence is related to effort to learn and ability to learn which is intelligence. Nobody with natural aptitude can capitalize on it without intelligence. Also, some people are said to have mechanical aptitude and seemingly can fix anything mechanical. I think you would be surprised by the results if you gave these people an IQ test. I think aptitude is often used to downplay intelligence of people that maybe were not formally educated. Also, at the Nuremburg trials all of his surviving officers were tested and found to be somewhere between 100-138 and the officers regarded Hitler as very intelligent. There's a strong change he would be somewhere between 100-138 which means likely at least average, but more likely above average.
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All of his officers were tested at the trials and they were between 100-138 and they considered Hitler intelligent. Best estimate we have is that he would be at least average intelligence but more likely in the 110-120 range. If all of his officers believed that he was a smart guy and they were almost all well above average he could not have been a moron like a few people in this thread have said.
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I usually score around 110 on IQ tests, and certainly don't consider myself above average intelligence. Although as I do possess a combination of cynicism and cunning that can be mistaken for intelligence from a distance, in poor lighting.
There could be an aspect of guilt transference to the testimony of senior Nazis regarding Hitler's intelligence. If he really was some kind of Machavilian genius, they could hardly be blamed for allowing themselves to be manipulated by him.
For the life of me I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote to the effect that if you believed a lot of Germans immediately after the War, the only Nazis were Hitler and his inner circle. And they somehow managed to take over the entire Fatherland by themselves. Nothing to do with, "normal" Germans. Heaven forfend.
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Yes, there may be some bias involved but I do not find it likely that a group of highly intelligent people would follow a moron. I'm no genius myself, I scored 118 and don't feel overly smart, but I know I can't handle working for people that are dumb as a box of rocks.I usually score around 110 on IQ tests, and certainly don't consider myself above average intelligence. Although as I do possess a combination of cynicism and cunning that can be mistaken for intelligence from a distance, in poor lighting.
There could be an aspect of guilt transference to the testimony of senior Nazis regarding Hitler's intelligence. If he really was some kind of Machavilian genius, they could hardly be blamed for allowing themselves to be manipulated by him.
For the life of me I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote to the effect that if you believed a lot of Germans immediately after the War, the only Nazis were Hitler and his inner circle. And they somehow managed to take over the entire Fatherland by themselves. Nothing to do with, "normal" Germans. Heaven forfend.
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Again, it could be down to self-interest. They might not have believed Hitler was particularly intelligent, but they knew he was a brilliant orator who could whip huge crowds into a frenzy. They followed him because they wanted to ride on his coat-tails all the way to the top. By the time they realised what he was, it was too late.
Thousands of ordinary Germans opposed Hitler's dictatorship and genocide. They paid with their lives.
But thousands more followed him to the bitter end.
They paid with their souls.
- Greg Pak, Red Skull Incarnate.
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Just read he’s in an undisclosed board and care home somewhere in LA.
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I usually score around 110 on IQ tests, and certainly don't consider myself above average intelligence. Although as I do possess a combination of cynicism and cunning that can be mistaken for intelligence from a distance, in poor lighting.
There could be an aspect of guilt transference to the testimony of senior Nazis regarding Hitler's intelligence. If he really was some kind of Machavilian genius, they could hardly be blamed for allowing themselves to be manipulated by him.
For the life of me I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote to the effect that if you believed a lot of Germans immediately after the War, the only Nazis were Hitler and his inner circle. And they somehow managed to take over the entire Fatherland by themselves. Nothing to do with, "normal" Germans. Heaven forfend.
(1) Hitler was not a good general or admiral and did cause problems when interfering there. He was only a corporal after all. But I think his strategic decisions were largely correct. The Axis were major underdogs and they gave us a good scare. Stalingrad and Dunkirk were pretty bad though.
(2) WW1 messenger was a dangerous, important and trustworthy job. You wouldn't give it to a bad soldier. By the way I don't know about now but in the 90s the British infantry still trained you at this, in case the electronic communications were (suspected of) being listened to by the enemy or went down.
At the Nuremberg Trials, two of his former superiors testified that Hitler had refused to be considered for promotion. Hitler was twice decorated for bravery. He received the Iron Cross Second Class in 1914 and the Iron Cross First Class in 1918, an honour rarely given to a lance corporal. Hitler's First Class Iron Cross was recommended by Lieutenant Hugo Gutmann, a Jewish adjutant in the List Regiment. According to Weber, this rare award was commonly awarded to those posted to regimental headquarters, such as Hitler, who had contact with more senior officers than did combat soldiers. Hitler's Iron Cross First Class was awarded after an attack in open warfare during which messengers were indispensable and on a day in which the depleted regiment lost 60 killed and 211 wounded.
During the Battle of the Somme in October 1916 Hitler received a wound in his left thigh when a shell exploded at the entrance to the dispatch runners' dugout. He begged not to be evacuated, but was sent for almost two months to the Red Cross hospital at Beelitz in Brandenburg. Thereafter, he was ordered to the depot in Munich. He wrote to his commanding officer, Hauptmann Fritz Wiedemann, asking that he be recalled to the regiment because he could not tolerate Munich when he knew his comrades were at the Front.
Irony is where something has the opposite from intended outcome.
(2) Here are the Nuremburg IQ scores:
1 Hjalmar Schacht 143
2 Arthur Seyss-Inquart 141
3 Hermann Goering 138
4 Karl Doenitz 138
5 Franz von Papen 134
6 Eric Raeder 134
7 Dr. Hans Frank 130
8 Hans Fritsche 130
9 Baldur von Schirach 130
10 Joachim von Ribbentrop 129
11 Wilhelm Keitel 129
12 Albert Speer 128
13 Alfred Jodl 127
14 Alfred Rosenberg 127
15 Constantin von Neurath 125
16 Walther Funk 124
17 Wilhelm Frick 124
18 Rudolf Hess 120
19 Fritz Sauckel 118
20 Ernst Kaltenbrunner 113
21 Julius Streicher 106
(3) I can't find a mainstream academic article estimating Hitler's IQ, which is perhaps not surprising considering how politically incorrect it would be to score him highly. The closest I can find are these:
125
133 - In an article linked in the above article, 'Pumpkin Person', who specialises in estimating famous people's IQs, estimated Hitler's as 133. The link is dead and the page has been deleted from the Wayback Machine.
134
(4) Of course you have to consider that IQ is an overall measure and people can be for instance, good at maths but bad at verbal skills etc. Hitler was top of his class at school. His art was also legit (and if he had stuck at it he would have improved).
(5) Don't do yourselves down, 110 is more intelligent than 75% of White people, and 118 is more intelligent than 88%.
(6) As @SirRealKiller said, while Hitler could not be IQ tested as he was
(7) Membership of the Nazi Party maxed out at 8 million, which was about 10% of the German population. Most people weren't Nazis, most people are just NPCs who obey authority.
(8) Over a million foreigners fought with the Germans in WW2. Famously most of the final defenders of the Bunker were French SS.
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An interesting thought, would Hitler still have risen to power if the German people weren't so crippled from WWI?
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