Was the Dad Wrong to Jump in and Stop This Choke in a Wresting Match?

[Einheri]

It doesn't look like there was much of a choke, if at all, but if the rules state that you can't encircle the neck then the referee should be doing his job. Having competed in Judo and BJJ, I can say a lot of referees are shit.

 

[ChickenBrother]

There are 2 problems with doing a DDT in real life. First problem is that you don't end up in a very good position so unless you KTFO the opponent with it you probably should think twice about it. The second is obiously that if you grab someone in a headlock and just fall backward as snappy as possible they're not going to immediately collapse head first but instead carry your weight with their neck shortly before collapsing down slowly like when you jump into a guillotine choke. This can be mitigated in 3 different ways: 1. DDT them while they're on both knees (this isn't a common position so it doesn't really offer itself. 2. move close towards your opponent when dropping down (this will just make it a sacrificing throw and it will roll them over, not hit their head on the floor) 3. Lift them off their feet. The third one makes most sense, which is the reason you actually see a front neck chancery in MMA sometimes. It also offers the great option to move into top position.

Ahh, got it. It's not visible in the video what happens with his right hand after he went under the arm and grabbed the shoulder. Makes me wonder when it precisely becomes illegal. Could he just push with the wrist of one arm into the wrist of the other arm to add pressure as long as there is no grasping or connection going on?

It's the exact same issue as with shoulder locks (except ude garami) in Judo. Uke has to be able to escape the lock into a bad position for himself.

Brutal DDT-like head landings can happen a lot when you Khabareli people as well. Georgian grips can be quite the head traps.

Yeah the front neck chancery like Zingano is doing there is something I used to attempt a lot. I remember that fight and was rooting for Miesha who won the first 2 rounds. But Zingano was too big and strong, wore her down and that TD was the beginning of the end for Tate.

Now as an older, slower but more skilled guy, I prefer to step between uke's legs and use butterfly sweep/sumi gaeshi and I've had success sweeping to either side from rightside front headlock. When my Can Am nemesis piledrived himself for the win, I think he must have stepped to the side because I remember ending up in a DDT ending position, thinking WTF is this guy doing and then grabbing his belt to pull him over.

Khabarelli lifts look really cool and I've tried to play with them since someone mentioned them on this forum. But I can't ever do any reps because my BJJ teammates get antsy when I even attempt low amplitude o uchi gari, ko uchi gake or de ashi harai.

 

[ChickenBrother]

OK watching the OP vid again and considering my son started wrestling last year and will likely compete this year, I wanted to understand the rules around chokes a little better. Here's a guide I found that outlines what's legal and illegal and it jives with what I remember from when I used to compete:

https://matref0.tripod.com/Articles/NFHS_Rules_Photos.pdf

My initial reaction to the OP vid was dad must be some male Karen who's never wrestled and he freaked out because he's a hover parent. But apparently dude wrestled in college and was a volunteer assistant wrestling coach at his kid's school. His son is a HS senior who has been wrestling for years and is 4 weeks from finishing his final season.

Here's the vid that apparently got dad a lot of online hate:



I think this vid is more telling than the OP vid because dad clearly didn't "punch" the other kid. He seems to slap him on the back and is just trying to get him to disengage. It also appears to show there is no active choke there. Top kid seems to be trying to turn bottom kid over and in any case, he's under the arm along with the head even if his fingers incidentally touch, making it a legal headlock UNLESS ref determines it's an intentional choke. The no locked hands on the mat rule doesn't apply here because that only applies around the waist.

Outcome of this was dad got reprimanded by the school and banned from coaching for life. He apologized for his actions and said he doesn't regret yelling at the ref there was a choke but shouldn't have physically intervened.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/sports/high-school/article284647645.html

I agree with the dad's apology. He's free to yell WTF-ever he wants during the match but let the ref do his job unless his kid is in imminent danger, which he wasn't. But I don't think he should have been banned from coaching for life.

 

[Patrick Jane]

https://www.idahostatesman.com/sports/high-school/article284647645.html

I agree with the dad's apology. He's free to yell WTF-ever he wants during the match but let the ref do his job unless his kid is in imminent danger, which he wasn't. But I don't think he should have been banned from coaching for life.

"The Nyssa School District has not ruled out seeking criminal charges" ... Talk about making a thunder out of a fart ...

Here's a guide I found that outlines what's legal and illegal and it jives with what I remember from when I used to compete:

https://matref0.tripod.com/Articles/NFHS_Rules_Photos.pdf

Thanks for this. I've been looking for a guide like this forever. Even bought a wrestling for dummies book once to get a better grasp which didn't really help.

Interestingly, i have never seen anybody apply an "overhead double arm bar" in any sport ever before. You learn something new every day ...

 

[ChickenBrother]

"The Nyssa School District has not ruled out seeking criminal charges" ... Talk about making a thunder out of a fart ...


Thanks for this. I've been looking for a guide like this forever. Even bought a wrestling for dummies book once to get a better grasp which didn't really help.

Interestingly, i have never seen anybody apply an "overhead double arm bar" in any sport ever before. You learn something new every day ...

Yeah it was surprisingly hard to find but I was curious too because most online guides only cover freetyle and GR, with folkstyle articles only going over scoring but not a comprehensive list of fouls. I've never seen an "overhead double armbar" either lol. Half nelsons are very common in sport wrestling but everyone knows full nelsons are illegal. And threading your arm all the way through the other arm after you have a half nelson seems way too ambitious even for the most dedicated heel wrestler.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

If the ref ain't gonna do his job, someone needs to.
It's never wrong to protect your kid.
What kind of a question is this?

This. I see someone chocking out my kid this person is getting hurt regardless of context, unless it s a grappling class or something.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Took my son to his wrestling class this weekend and I've also been doing the adult wrestling class there on top of BJJ at our main gym. After class I asked the coach if he'd seen the OP video. He had. The guy is in his mid 30's, came up wrestling and currently coaches and competes in both folkstyle and freestyle (kids, HS and adults) at the national level. He's also a sponsored athlete who competes in international tournaments and is a part time wrestling coach at American Top Team.

He said from what's visible in the video, there's no issue. The "head only" rule only applies if you have a headlock i.e. hands clasped together. If you have an arm with the head, you can crank the shit out of that all you want. And likewise, if you have an arm under the chin as in the OP video, you can still crank/choke the shit out of the other kid as long as you don't clasp your hands together with only the head in there. Basically you're giving other kid the choice of getting choked out or being pinned. He also said he teaches his kids to apply a carotid artery choke during turks, front headlocks and arm triangle choke/pin combos.

Other than myself, I've never seen a kid go out in wrestling but apparently if they do it's treated as any other injury time out as long as it was inflicted by a legal move which includes crossface "chokes." From my description, he did say my experience getting choked out in my wrestling match should have been called by the ref because it had been a "head only" choke under the chin with other guy having hands clasped.

All of this is consistent with my recollection of these situations. Wrestling is a tough sport.

 

[Patrick Jane]

He said from what's visible in the video, there's no issue. The "head only" rule only applies if you have a headlock i.e. hands clasped together. If you have an arm with the head, you can crank the shit out of that all you want. And likewise, if you have an arm under the chin as in the OP video, you can still crank/choke the shit out of the other kid as long as you don't clasp your hands together with only the head in there. Basically you're giving other kid the choice of getting choked out or being pinned. He also said he teaches his kids to apply a carotid artery choke during turks, front headlocks and arm triangle choke/pin combos.

Might be off topic but now i finally understand why Severn didn't clasp his hands in the Macias fight.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Might be off topic but now i finally understand why Severn didn't clasp his hands in the Macias fight.

View attachment 1026686

Great catch. Yeah like most high level American wrestlers, Severn successfully transitioned from folkstyle (no locking hands around the waist after match is grounded with or without arm in i.e. seatbelt grip) to high level freestyle (locking hands allowed and encouraged on the mat) but blatant RNC or ezekiel chokes are still forbidden and here he's trying to do a "choke that doesn't look like a choke" under wrestling rules.

Severn was a literal beast of an athlete and great sportsman but in MMA he seemed reluctant to injure his opponents or inflict unnecessary damage. I feel like he could have won more fights (including vs. Royce) had he been more willing to GnP them into bolivian from top position.

 

[Patrick Jane]

Great catch. Yeah like most high level American wrestlers, Severn successfully transitioned from folkstyle (no locking hands around the waist after match is grounded with or without arm in i.e. seatbelt grip) to high level freestyle (locking hands allowed and encouraged on the mat) but blatant RNC or ezekiel chokes are still forbidden and here he's trying to do a "choke that doesn't look like a choke" under wrestling rules.

Severn was a literal beast of an athlete and great sportsman but in MMA he seemed reluctant to injure his opponents or inflict unnecessary damage. I feel like he could have won more fights (including vs. Royce) had he been more willing to GnP them into bolivian from top position.

That's the (not so) famous UFC 4 / UFC 5 mindset shift that took place. In UFC 4, he didn't throw a single strike, didn't clasp his hands for the Macias finish (he did clasp his hands in the Marcus Bossett finish because it was a head and arm position) and didn't attack Gracie on the ground. In UFC 5, as soon has he rushes at Joe Charles, he immediately starts throwing punches and knees like crazy when they hit the ground and he actually locks his hands for the finishing strangle there as well.

When i first heard Severn claim he lost to Gracie because he wasn't willing to hurt him i thought it was a silly excuse, but after he said in a later interview that he stayed within wrestling rules at UFC 4 and started fighting NHB in UFC 5, i went back and checked the actual fights and it turned out he didn't lie about that. I think that this massive shift just isn't really visible when you don't pay attention since him suplexing the shit out of Macias and him completely dominating Bossett are spectacular enough to look like he is going all out. Not that it makes a huge difference for Severn anyway, since his striking was so weak that elbowing Tank Abbotts brains in for 18 minutes didn't lead to a finish.

 

[ChickenBrother]

That's the (not so) famous UFC 4 / UFC 5 mindset shift that took place. In UFC 4, he didn't throw a single strike, didn't clasp his hands for the Macias finish (he did clasp his hands in the Marcus Bossett finish because it was a head and arm position) and didn't attack Gracie on the ground. In UFC 5, as soon has he rushes at Joe Charles, he immediately starts throwing punches and knees like crazy when they hit the ground and he actually locks his hands for the finishing strangle there as well.

When i first heard Severn claim he lost to Gracie because he wasn't willing to hurt him i thought it was a silly excuse, but after he said in a later interview that he stayed within wrestling rules at UFC 4 and started fighting NHB in UFC 5, i went back and checked the actual fights and it turned out he didn't lie about that. I think that this massive shift just isn't really visible when you don't pay attention since him suplexing the shit out of Macias and him completely dominating Bossett are spectacular enough to look like he is going all out. Not that it makes a huge difference for Severn anyway, since his striking was so weak that elbowing Tank Abbotts brains in for 18 minutes didn't lead to a finish.

This makes total sense. Severn made his MMA debut at UFC 4 at age 36 after a lifetime of wrestling and he's a good example of the disadvantage that elite other sport athletes sometimes face vs. lesser accomplished peers who transitioned to MMA earlier. Severn had an insane wrestling career and was an Olympic alternate, only having lost in the Olympic qualifier finals to Banach who went on to win Olympic gold. But there have been plenty of lesser accomplished sport wrestlers who had much better MMA grappling, perhaps partially because they weren't having to unlearn 30 years of sport wrestling rules to do so.

 

[maximus__]

Social media wants to know.

It's kinda a 1 arm RN without the hooks in. Watching the video, the kid initially stays face down and kinda looks like he is out and only moves once dad is already in.

I am pretty sure you can't do that in wrestling and old matey isn't trying to turn him with it and does actually settle in for a choke. I don't think he was trying to put him out, but I am guessing the other kid knows what a choke is and was kinda being a bit dirty about it without the intent of putting him out.

Edit:Second video shows it better above. I still think he was trying to choke him by pinning the leg, but big deal over nothing on both sides.

 

[Nathan LaMontagne]

Man fuck him.

Less egregious, but lost a judo match at American Canadian games back in the day due to shitty officiating and I still remember that too.

Got thrown, did a spin out in mid air and landed belly down in a plank. Ref called "Ippon!", even the other kids coach was yelling at the ref telling him that's no score and to let us finish the round.

I feel your pain.

I feel like every other tournament that shit would happen to me.

I was the king of bellying out in Judo.



I remember on time I landed soo hard on my face and knee I had both bruised.

Still was called ippon.

 

[shunyata]

I feel your pain.

I feel like every other tournament that shit would happen to me.

I was the king of bellying out in Judo.



I remember on time I landed soo hard on my face and knee I had both bruised.

Still was called ippon.

Some of those old IJF refs make modern IBJJF reffing look downright professional.

 

[Thrawn33]

Some of those old IJF refs make modern IBJJF reffing look downright professional.

Scary....

My kids one and only Judo tournament there were more refs checking gi sizes (on fucking 6 year olds) than working the mats.

Threatened my son with a hasomake for sleeves being a hair too short, his coach nearly lost it. "Where are your priorities? This is everything wrong with Judo today!"