Was the Dad Wrong to Jump in and Stop This Choke in a Wresting Match?

[mkt]

Social media wants to know.

 

[mattemate]

If the ref ain't gonna do his job, someone needs to.
It's never wrong to protect your kid.
What kind of a question is this?

 

[mkt]

If the ref ain't gonna do his job, someone needs to.
It's never wrong to protect your kid.
What kind of a question is this?

It's a big deal in some internet marketing/business circles because the dad owns a well-known software company.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I’ll never say a dad is “wrong” for acting because he thinks his son is in danger. But to me, that looks like more of a crossface than a blatant choke and isn’t against the kid’s windpipe. And while you can’t see with the ref in the way, the kid doesn’t appear to be showing signs of being forcibly choked. For the record, I HAVE been choked unconscious in a wrestling tournament and the ref didn’t do shit and allowed the guy to pin me. So I know what that feels like and that doesn’t look like it’s happening here yet.

It might have turned into a choke but if that were my son (who trains wrestling and BJJ and whom I have cornered in tournaments), I would not have stepped in that soon.

 

[mattemate]

It's a big deal in some internet marketing/business circles because the dad owns a well-known software company.

That probably won't affect his business, and if it did, fuck those clients.

I’ll never say a dad is “wrong” for acting because he thinks his son is in danger. But to me, that does not yet look like a blatant choke and isn’t against the kid’s windpipe. And while you can’t see with the ref in the way, the kid doesn’t appear to be showing signs of being forcibly choked. For the record, I HAVE been choked unconscious in a wrestling tournament and the ref didn’t do shit and allowed the guy to pin me. So I know what that feels like and that doesn’t look like it’s happening here yet.

It might have turned into a choke but if that were my son (who trains wrestling and BJJ and whom I have cornered in tournaments), I would not have stepped in that soon.

I didn't grow up wrestling, but I thought you can't have ONLY the neck like that, that you have to have an arm in as well. Am I mistaken?

 

[ChickenBrother]

That probably won't affect his business, and if it did, fuck those clients.


I didn't grow up wrestling, but I thought you can't have ONLY the neck like that, that you have to have an arm in as well. Am I mistaken?

I’ll defer to anyone in here who is a current coach or ref. You can have just head in a crossface but it’s supposed to be across the face/jawline and isn’t supposed to be a blatant choke under the chin. However I believe there is some ref discretion on whether or not it’s a “choke.” In my case it was an adult tournament and the dude had his forearm under my chin choking me for fucking 10 seconds until I started gurgling and looked up at the ref. He just looked at me and let me go out and then I woke up to the sound of being pinned. That ref sucked.

 

[mattemate]

I’ll defer to anyone in here who is a current coach or ref, but you can crossface but it’s supposed to be across the face/jawline and isn’t supposed to be a blatant choke under the chin. However I believe there is some ref discretion in whether or not it’s a “choke.” In my case it was an adult tournament and the dude had his forearm under my chin choking me for fucking 10 seconds and I started gurgling and looked up at the ref. He just looked at me and let me go out and then I woke up to the sound of being pinned. That ref sucked.

Like a chicken with its head cut off?

 

[ChickenBrother]

Like a chicken with its head cut off?

Pretty much. And 25 years later, I’m still salty about that ref letting that dude choke me out in a wrestling tournament lol.

 

[mattemate]

Pretty much. And 25 years later, I’m still salty about that ref letting that dude choke me out in a wrestling tournament lol.

Let's figure out who he is. I'm sure we can fuck him up.

 

[shunyata]

Pretty much. And 25 years later, I’m still salty about that ref letting that dude choke me out in a wrestling tournament lol.

Man fuck him.

Less egregious, but lost a judo match at American Canadian games back in the day due to shitty officiating and I still remember that too.

Got thrown, did a spin out in mid air and landed belly down in a plank. Ref called "Ippon!", even the other kids coach was yelling at the ref telling him that's no score and to let us finish the round.

 

[StonedLemur]

That probably won't affect his business, and if it did, fuck those clients.


I didn't grow up wrestling, but I thought you can't have ONLY the neck like that, that you have to have an arm in as well. Am I mistaken?

I had to watch it a few times but he definitely goes under the chin, it was more of a modified RNC (a blood choke).

I grew up wrestling and my coach was an animal, but he wouldn't tolerate that lol.

Now the kid would've only passed out, but that's not a legal hold where I came from sir.

 

[mkt]

I had to watch it a few times but he definitely goes under the chin, it was more of a modified RNC (a blood choke).

I grew up wrestling and my coach was an animal, but he wouldn't tolerate that lol.

Now the kid would've only passed out, but that's not a legal hold where I came from sir.

My thought exactly about the modified RNC (with "choking kid's" arm under the armpit of the choked kid).

 

[ChickenBrother]

Man fuck him.

Less egregious, but lost a judo match at American Canadian games back in the day due to shitty officiating and I still remember that too.

Got thrown, did a spin out in mid air and landed belly down in a plank. Ref called "Ippon!", even the other kids coach was yelling at the ref telling him that's no score and to let us finish the round.

That sucks. Yeah throws where uke would land on his back but spins in the air and lands on belly sometimes get controversial. It's kind of like ruling on what exactly constitutes a choke in wrestling.

My Can Am judo screwjob was in a dual meet vs. RMC (Royal Military College) and my opponent was driving into me with his head down. I put in a front headlock and went for sumi gaeshi but he planted the top of his head on the mat on impact so it looked like I was doing a DDT. This caused him to pause with his feet in the air for a split second as I pulled him over for what I thought would be a wazari for me. But the ref called Ippon for other guy because I had gone to my back. And other dude was dizzied when he stood up from the impact of slamming his own head into the mat.

I was pretty upset about it but kept my cool. But our team ended up going out to dinner with the other team and I'm sitting there having a beer with the guy and he brought up the match and was like, "yeah I can't remember exactly what I did but my head still hurts from the impact, eh? I guess I defaulted to my morote gari."

He did NOT do morote gari but I didn't have the heart to dump on him because he was being respectful and was obviously happy as shit about getting the win (I was a higher belt rank than him). So I just smiled and told him good job while feeling like this:

 

[StonedLemur]

My thought exactly about the modified RNC (with "choking kid's" arm under the armpit of the choked kid).

Yeah, I had to watch it a few times but that's what it looked like to me.

 

[Patrick Jane]

That probably won't affect his business, and if it did, fuck those clients.


I didn't grow up wrestling, but I thought you can't have ONLY the neck like that, that you have to have an arm in as well. Am I mistaken?

I don't have a background in folkstyle wrestling but i can definitely say that a crossface (often under the chin but with upward / angled towards chin and no neck compression), usually with some leg ride / turk variation happens A LOT in wrestling from what i have seen. Not sure how the rules are regarding this.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I don't have a background in folkstyle wrestling but i can definitely say that a crossface (often under the chin but with upward / angled towards chin and no neck compression), usually with some leg ride / turk variation happens A LOT in wrestling from what i have seen. Not sure how the rules are regarding this.

Yeah having been on giving and receiving ends of a lot of these, compliance holds are a big part of folkstyle wrestling. Technically subs aren't allowed but the intent is to make it as miserable as possible for your opponent within the rules so they let you pin them. In your second image above, bottom guy is in a position where he can either turn away from opponent and choke himself, or turn into him to relieve the choke and get pinned. But referee discretion is required to rule if tori is just applying a blatant choke, which can get subjective.

 

[mkt]

I don't have a background in folkstyle wrestling but i can definitely say that a crossface (often under the chin but with upward / angled towards chin and no neck compression), usually with some leg ride / turk variation happens A LOT in wrestling from what i have seen. Not sure how the rules are regarding this.

Yeah, I think the issue wasn't getting one arm under his chin. It was using his other arm and grasping his hands together--which looked like a modified RNC. But it was brief and a bit hard to see what really happened.

 

[mkt]

so it looked like I was doing a DDT.

I love it when some other older guys are on here. I haven't watched wrasslin' since I was a kid but loved Jake the Snake and his DDT. I've always wondered if someone has tried it in MMA? I know Sapp did a piledriver on Big Nog.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I love it when some other older guys are on here. I haven't watched wrasslin' since I was a kid but loved Jake the Snake and his DDT. I've always wondered if someone has tried it in MMA? I know Sapp did a piledriver on Big Nog.

Yeah I loved Jake the Snake as well lol. I did take some small cold comfort after taking the L when some teammates were jokingly giving me shit about "being DQed for attempting a DDT in a Judo match." But I had been trying to pull him over into sumi gaeshi and he just slammed his own head into the mat. A lot of things are happening at once in scrambles and I guess that's why you need a ref to make the call.

 

[Patrick Jane]

I love it when some other older guys are on here. I haven't watched wrasslin' since I was a kid but loved Jake the Snake and his DDT. I've always wondered if someone has tried it in MMA? I know Sapp did a piledriver on Big Nog.

There are 2 problems with doing a DDT in real life. First problem is that you don't end up in a very good position so unless you KTFO the opponent with it you probably should think twice about it. The second is obiously that if you grab someone in a headlock and just fall backward as snappy as possible they're not going to immediately collapse head first but instead carry your weight with their neck shortly before collapsing down slowly like when you jump into a guillotine choke. This can be mitigated in 3 different ways: 1. DDT them while they're on both knees (this isn't a common position so it doesn't really offer itself. 2. move close towards your opponent when dropping down (this will just make it a sacrificing throw and it will roll them over, not hit their head on the floor) 3. Lift them off their feet. The third one makes most sense, which is the reason you actually see a front neck chancery in MMA sometimes. It also offers the great option to move into top position.

Yeah, I think the issue wasn't getting one arm under his chin. It was using his other arm and grasping his hands together--which looked like a modified RNC. But it was brief and a bit hard to see what really happened.

Ahh, got it. It's not visible in the video what happens with his right hand after he went under the arm and grabbed the shoulder. Makes me wonder when it precisely becomes illegal. Could he just push with the wrist of one arm into the wrist of the other arm to add pressure as long as there is no grasping or connection going on?

Yeah having been on both the giving and receiving ends of a lot of these, compliance holds are a big part of folkstyle wrestling. Technically subs aren't allowed but the intent is to make it as miserable as possible for your opponent within the rules so they let you pin them. In your second image above, bottom guy is in a position where he can either turn away from opponent and choke himself, or turn into him to relieve the choke and get pinned. But referee discretion is required to rule if tori is just applying a blatant choke, which can get subjective.

It's the exact same issue as with shoulder locks (except ude garami) in Judo. Uke has to be able to escape the lock into a bad position for himself.

Yeah I loved Jake the Snake as well lol. I did take some small cold comfort after taking the L when some teammates were jokingly giving me shit about "being DQed for attempting a DDT in a Judo match." But I had been trying to pull him over into sumi gaeshi and he just slammed his own head into the mat. A lot of things are happening at once in scrambles and I guess that's why you need a ref to make the call.

Brutal DDT-like head landings can happen a lot when you Khabareli people as well. Georgian grips can be quite the head traps.