Venezuela, The Starving Socialist Dystopia (Part 1)

Trying to use Venezuela as an example of bad European style democracy socialist system is like trying to use South Africa as an example why the democratic capitalist system doesn't work.

Now both systems have their advantages. But there is simply no denying that if you want to enable a more significant part of your population to have a better life, Europen style systems are better.

I find it annoying that they bring up the Scandinavian countries, when the Norway Krone is one of the most traded currencies (compared to their population size) and Sweden has an economy based on exports.
 
I find it annoying that they bring up the Scandinavian countries, when the Norway Krone is one of the most traded currencies (compared to their population size) and Sweden has an economy based on exports.

Yeah, I can't really go to much into the currency stuff because I don't know so much about that.
But if you look at social democracy and a rather strict government just look at Switzerland I never heard of any issues they currency and they have more local regulation and laws than Germany.
 
Yup, and here we discuss specific things like adults, not just throw random catch-phrases to score political points.
Like leftists throw around 'But... but... but... Scandinavian countries!!!' ????

Im actually discussing the things that have caused the problems.
Like taxing the rich businesses of Venezuela into leaving the entire country?

How about government officials fleecing the tax money? (Hugo Chavez was worth $1.2 Billion upon his death.)

How about this being another example of a politician promising a utopianism being elected into a high office, and the entire country collapses around its citizens?

Price controls.
Foreign exchange controls.

Go on...

You got to come up with more than that to make a convincing argument as to why the richest country in South America has devolved into a dictatorship with high crime rates, and death tolls in the thousands, within a decade.

You sure you want to just say 'Price controls,' 'Foreign exchange controls,' and you might as well add 'bad management' to the list as well.

Nope, i blame it on the things that actually cause it.

Dammit those rich people that left! If only they didn't leave so we could tax then more to add to our own bank accounts this never would have happened!

If you want to throw memes or blame it on ambiguous things go ahead, but dont get pissed when people point out the idiocy and shallowness of people like you who relish on human suffering in order to attack your political enemies who have never, ever, proposed the policies that caused Venezuela to go full Venezuela.

Here's your reality check, Rod1.

Venezuela was a tropical paradise with high immigration rates, a booming economy, and it was a vacation destination throughout the world.

And it all collapsed because a 'Democratic Socialist' echoing the 'talking points' so many totalitarians have vomitted out of their mouths for decades to decieve the entire populations into electing them into high office. And these same 'talking points' are also echoed by politicians here, with the desire to impliment the same policies here that destroyed Venezuela and so many other countries.

To which we reply to those politicans here, and their supporters like you Rod1,

"Go Fuck Yourself."
 
Venezuela was a tropical paradise with high immigration rates, a booming economy, and it was a vacation destination throughout the world.

And it all collapsed because a 'Democratic Socialist' echoing the 'talking points' so many totalitarians have vomitted out of their mouths for decades to decieve the entire populations into electing them into high office. And these same 'talking points' are also echoed by politicians here, with the desire to impliment the same policies here that destroyed Venezuela and so many other countries.

To which we reply to those politicans here, and their supporters like you Rod1,

"Go Fuck Yourself."

So in your opinion were is the population overall better off in the Europen democratic socialist states or in the US?
I mean I get why you like the US system. It would be better for me personally also because I am from the upper middle class.
But in general, all numbers are much better in Europe compared to the US. And the US has a significant advantage over Europe because the US$ is the world currency.
 
So in your opinion were is the population overall better off in the Europen democratic socialist states or in the US?
I mean I get why you like the US system. It would be better for me personally also because I am from the upper middle class.
But in general, all numbers are much better in Europe compared to the US. And the US has a significant advantage over Europe because the US$ is the world currency.

So, you think the fall of Venezuela is due to outside sources? The EU or the US?

My view on that subject, is it is a deflection, and whatever choice (EU or US) it would have made since the beginning of Chavez's administration, it would have been a minor factor in its current condition today.
 
So, you think the fall of Venezuela is due to outside sources? The EU or the US?

My view on that subject, is it is a deflection, and whatever choice (EU or US) it would have made since the beginning of Chavez's administration, it would have been a minor factor in its current condition today.

Mhh I have to be honest I just read the last paragraph of your post.
So I might have missed your overall point sorry.

But hey keeping War Room traditions alive not replying to the actual meaning of the post but what you think it meant :).
 
Like leftists throw around 'But... but... but... Scandinavian countries!!!' ????

That's just to point out the massive flaws on your logic, because its you guys who are trying to draw a parallel between Venezuelan politicians and other socialist politicians elsewhere.

Like taxing the rich businesses of Venezuela into leaving the entire country?

How about government officials fleecing the tax money? (Hugo Chavez was worth $1.2 Billion upon his death.)

How about this being another example of a politician promising a utopianism being elected into a high office, and the entire country collapses around its citizens?

There are plenty of countries that tax the rich a lot.

Venezuelan government itself wasnt that big and taxes were low compared to first world countries.


Go on...

You got to come up with more than that to make a convincing argument as to why the richest country in South America has devolved into a dictatorship with high crime rates, and death tolls in the thousands, within a decade.

You sure you want to just say 'Price controls,' 'Foreign exchange controls,' and you might as well add 'bad management' to the list as well.

Bad management is ambiguous, price controls isnt. Just because you are ignorant of these terms they dont become ambiguous.

Price controls cause shortages, thats one of the few economic universal truths out there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_controls#Criticism

And currency controls is a little more complicated, we could have a good talk about it if you are willing to listen.

Dammit those rich people that left! If only they didn't leave so we could tax then more to add to our own bank accounts this never would have happened!

Its not taxes what caused capital to flee Venezuela it was the strict currency controls which made normal business impossible there.

Not to mention price controls made tons of industries unprofitable

Here's your reality check, Rod1.

Venezuela was a tropical paradise with high immigration rates, a booming economy, and it was a vacation destination throughout the world.

And it all collapsed because a 'Democratic Socialist' echoing the 'talking points' so many totalitarians have vomitted out of their mouths for decades to decieve the entire populations into electing them into high office. And these same 'talking points' are also echoed by politicians here, with the desire to impliment the same policies here that destroyed Venezuela and so many other countries.

To which we reply to those politicans here, and their supporters like you Rod1,

"Go Fuck Yourself."

It collapsed for many reasons, the main ones i already mentioned.

Also you are accusing me of being a Maduro supporter, so you obviously havent read the thread either and have absolutely nothing of value to contribute.
 
So, you think the fall of Venezuela is due to outside sources? The EU or the US?

My view on that subject, is it is a deflection, and whatever choice (EU or US) it would have made since the beginning of Chavez's administration, it would have been a minor factor in its current condition today.

Nope, its not due to outside sources.

Its because of terrible economic policies carried out by the Venezuelan government.
 
Once a Cash Cow, Venezuela’s Oil Company Now Verges on Collapse
By KIRK SEMPLE and CLIFFORD KRAUSS | DEC. 27, 2017

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An out-of-service pump at a Pdvsa gas station in Paraguaná
A general with no energy experience has been installed as the head of the state oil company. Arrests, firings and desperate emigration have gutted top talent. Oil facilities are crumbling, while production is plummeting.
As the rest of the oil-producing world recovers on the back of stronger energy prices, Venezuela is getting worse, the result of dysfunctional management, rampant corruption and the country’s crippling economic crisis. The deepening troubles at the state oil company, the country’s economic mainstay, threaten to further destabilize a nation and government facing a dire recession, soaring inflation and unbridled crime, as well as food and medicine shortages.

When energy prices started to crater several years ago, Venezuela and other oil-dependent nations suffered in tandem. Now, prices are rising and others in the oil patch are on the mend.

Saudi Arabia’s government is slashing its deficits and reaping increased revenue. Even dysfunctional Libya and Iraq have been pumping and exporting like mad.

Not Venezuela, the country with the largest proven reserves in the world. The state-owned oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela, known as Pdvsa, teeters on the brink of collapse, its failures at once a symptom and a cause of the nation’s downward economic spiral.

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Residents of the fishing village Amuay waited for several hours to get their gas tanks filled.


The reasons can be clearly seen at the sprawling oil refining complex here on the Caribbean coast. Once the crown jewel of Venezuela’s oil industry, it not only fueled the country’s booming economy but also produced an abundance of lucrative gasoline and diesel for export.

Today, the complex is in severe decay. A lack of investment compounded by cash flow problems and chronic shortages of spare parts have crippled operations, critics say.

It is closing out the year operating at only 20 percent capacity, with 76 of 84 plants paralyzed, said Iván Freites, a union leader and outspoken government critic. The complex does not have the computer software to diagnose its production problems, nor the money to fix them if they did.

“It’s like a slow death,” Mr. Freites said.

With facilities around the country in disrepair, Venezuela has been unable to take advantage of rising prices by pumping out more oil and ramping up refinery operations. Production is falling 20,000 barrels to 50,000 barrels a day month after month and is now at its lowest level in nearly three decades.

As it sells less oil, Pdvsa is falling behind on its debt payments. It is quickly turning into a liability that could force the country into default.

“With production going down and down, there is a spiral of less cash and less investment and less production,” said Francisco J. Monaldi, a Venezuelan oil expert at Rice University in Houston. “I don’t think there has ever been such a collapse in cash flow of any national oil company.”

Pdvsa’s production problems have been exacerbated by the turbulence in its leadership. In the last few months, the government of President Nicolás Maduro arrested scores of managers on corruption charges. Mr. Maduro says the prosecutions are an effort to clean up the company. But critics view the sweep as a political purge by the Mr. Maduro to consolidate power ahead of presidential elections next year.

And last month, the president appointed Major General Manuel Quevedo to run both Pdvsa and the oil ministry — though he had no known experience in the energy sector. Critics viewed the move as a transparent effort by Mr. Maduro to safeguard against a coup.

Luis Giusti, who ran Pdvsa before President Hugo Chávez came to power in 1999, said Mr. Maduro’s purge was “more of a political campaign to see if they can have some breathing room because everything is going down the drain.”

“They have been managing the corporation for 18 years and then all of a sudden they are saying now they are going to rescue the corporation,” he added. “Rescue from whom?”

For generations, Pdvsa delivered mightily on the promises of Venezuela’s oil reserves, funding the nation’s socialist-inspired revolution and making it one of the wealthiest countries in Latin America. But production in recent years has plummeted so far that Pdvsa is no longer able to meet domestic demand for diesel and gasoline, forcing the country to import increasing amounts of both, including from the United States.

The company’s crude exports have also fallen drastically. Shipments to the United States, Pdvsa’s top foreign market, plunged by a third over the last year. Mr. Maduro has threatened to cut crude exports to the United States entirely and sell more to China and India. But crude exports to China have also fallen — by nearly 15 percent over the last year — as the quality of its oil has declined and China has increased its purchases from the United States.

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The sprawling Amuay refinery on the Caribbean coast of Venezuela. Some 200,000 gallons of gasoline and other products spilled from a slop tank at the refinery into an adjacent bay in late October.


Pdvsa is also sagging under the burden of immense debt. It has been effectively in default on its $26.5 billion in unsecured bonds since early November, and it owes roughly $60 billion more to its service companies that drill and maintain its fields.

The Maduro administration has insisted that it intends to continue to make payments on its debts, and investors have been largely tolerant of payment delays. But Pdvsa’s financial health has become so perilous that Cuba, Venezuela’s closest ally, recently took the company’s 49 percent share in a Cuban refinery as payment for outstanding debts.

This company’s struggles are particularly evident in the two sprawling refineries that bracket this small city and form part of the Paraguaná Refining Center, one of the largest refinery complexes in the world.

As recently as 2015, the center, with a capacity of nearly a million barrels a day, was processing about 587,000 barrels a day, according to Pdvsa’s website. The crude was converted into a range of products, including gasoline, jet fuel, asphalts and lubricants.

But the refineries, like most of the company’s facilities around the country, have fallen into grave disrepair. The situation has forced severe cutbacks in operations, leading to layoffs and an increase in accidents and injuries, workers and union leaders said.

The refineries have been recently plagued by a series of mishaps.

In late October, some 200,000 gallons of gasoline and other products spilled from a slop tank in one of the refineries, Amuay, into the adjacent bay. The spill killed wildlife and forced local fishermen to suspend fishing for weeks.

Then an overworked pump in the same refinery failed, leaving operational only two of five distillation units, a key part of the refining process, workers and union leaders said.

Days later, a fire broke out in a separate refinery, Cardón, leaving only one of five distillation units functioning. Workers reported that the emergency crew that responded could do little more than to watch the fire burn out on its own. They had run out of firefighting foam.

In the midst of it all, production came to a near-standstill, dropping to just 13 percent of capacity in early-December before rebounding slightly, Mr. Freites said. Three of Amuay’s distillation units and two at Cardón were functioning this week, the union leader said on Wednesday, but he added that another fire had broken out in Cardón on Tuesday causing injuries.

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The disintegration of the refineries has left many workers dispirited.

Employees have lost all interest, said Emilio, a worker in the Cardón refinery who asked that his last name be withheld because he feared punishment by the authorities for criticizing the company. He said they were simply punching the clock.

Wage increases have lagged far behind soaring inflation and workers have seen their purchasing power drop markedly and benefits reduced sharply. Some employees have been forced to sell their gloves and helmets to put food on their family’s dinner table, workers said. Pride of association with Pdvsa has evaporated.

Before, people would be devastated if they lost a job at Pdvsa, said José, a worker in the Amuay refinery who also asked that his last name be withheld because he feared retribution from his bosses for speaking publicly about the company. Now, he said, many dread going to work and are looking for jobs elsewhere.

In recent years, the company has slashed the number of contractors employed at the refineries, said Mr. Freites, general secretary of the Oil and Gas Workers Union of Falcón State. But with production at a crawl, he said, even salaried workers are left with little to do, and many spend their days playing cards and dominoes.

Pdvsa’s downfall is rippling through this once-thriving company town. Roads are plunged into darkness at night because thieves have made off with the wires that carry power to the street lamps. Shops in the city’s downtown, once abuzz with commerce, are now shuttered.

Residents have migrated abroad in search of work and better lives. Hundreds of oil workers have signed three-year contracts in recent weeks to work for $10 an hour in construction helping the Caribbean island of St. Martin rebuild following the hurricanes.

José said he went to work every day wondering which of his colleagues would be the latest to leave; he compared the experience to a reality show. Pdvsa, he said, is now an empty shell.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/27/world/americas/venezuela-oil-pdvsa.html
 
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Maduro says Venezuela will issue $5.9 billion in oil-backed cryptocurrency
Fabian Cambero, Girish Gupta | Jan 5, 2018



President Nicolas Maduro said on Friday that Venezuela would issue 100 million units of its new oil-backed cryptocurrency in coming days, although it is unclear whether any investors will want to purchase the “petro” at a time when the OPEC member is going through a deep economic crisis and its leftist government has little credibility.

Socialist Maduro surprised many last month when he announced the launch of the cryptocurrency, to be backed by Venezuela’s oil, gas, gold and diamond reserves, as a way to circumvent U.S. sanctions that have hurt Venezuela’s access to international banks.

Maduro specified on Friday that each unit of the currency would be pegged to Venezuela’s oil basket, which this week averaged $59.07 per barrel, according to the oil ministry. That implies the total cryptocurrency issued would be worth just over $5.9 billion.

There is much confusion, however, over how the mechanism will work. Opposition politicians have already panned the project as a fanciful idea doomed to fail and useless at getting food to the millions who are suffering from product shortages and the world’s highest inflation.

Maduro says the cryptocurrency will usher in the “21st century” and boost Venezuela’s access to hard currency.

“I have ordered the emission of 100 million petros with the legal sustenance of Venezuela’s certified and legalized oil wealth,” said Maduro in a state television address.

“Every petro will be equal in value to Venezuela’s oil barrel.”

Venezuela has the world’s largest oil reserves, according to OPEC, and makes some 95 percent of its export revenue from oil. Critics say the government has squandered wealth from a decade-long oil boom and that without reforms any influx of resources will also be burned through.

Strict currency controls have forced people onto the black market, on which a dollar can buy 137,000 bolivars. The country’s strongest official rate, meanwhile, is 10 bolivars per dollar.

That fall in value combined with money printing by the central bank is behind what many analysts are measuring as hyperinflation.

Local economic consultancy Ecoanalitica said prices rose more than 80 percent in December alone. Money supply, according to the central bank, was up more than 1,000 percent last year.

Maduro said the cryptocurrency issuance would take place through virtual exchanges in the coming day, but did not give further details.

Cryptocurrencies are decentralized and their success relies on transparency, clear rules and equal treatment of all involved.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-oil-backed-cryptocurrency-idUSKBN1EV02S?il=0
 
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