Social The Confederate Flag still flies proudly over South Carolina's state Capitol grounds.

[panamaican]

Personally, the traumatized child in the elastic-waistband jean shorts is my favorite of the bunch. He'll never have a chance.



For as silly and trivial as I believe the Confederate flag to be, I actually do sympathize with the people who really do see it as a chip-on-the-shoulder heritage symbol and don't necessarily think that all protectors of the flag should be thrown in with Neo-Nazis.

Nor do I but I was speaking to the reality that both groups tend to draw from the same pool of people. Not exclusively so but significantly so.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Not exactly dispelling stereotypes of the American South are they?

Well, the Neo-Nazi's were from Detroit.:icon_chee

 

[PainIsLIfe]

Why dont the people in the South who really want to believe the flag is about heritage make a small change to it to differentiate it from the actual Confederate flag? They could tweak it to retain the Stars and Bars but add something else then they would have a better argument for it being about heritage and not hate/racism/slavery/treason.

It's been done and people still get called racist over it.

 

[OldGoat]

And what's the overlap?

The overlap is with the white supremacists. Not everyone who carries a Confederate flag or plays with a little General Lee or has a Confederate flag is a white supremacist. All birds are animals doesn't mean all animals are birds...

And these white supremacist pictures have me cracking up. The photos themselves are probably the best argument against white supremacy I can think of.

 

[UpaLoompa]

It's been done and people still get called racist over it.

My opinion is that the whole argument of "heritage, not hate" is ridiculous to begin with. The basis of the confederacy was slavery. The heritage in question is one of hate.

I'm sure you, and others, will come back with some bullshit "lost cause" argument about sovereignty and state's rights and whatever but that was all nonsense ginned up after the war to whitewash the reality of why the South seceded.

 

[sickc0d3r]

The overlap is with the white supremacists. Not everyone who carries a Confederate flag or plays with a little General Lee or has a Confederate flag is a white supremacist. All birds are animals doesn't mean all animals are birds...

Well if it flies to a target parking lot, lands on a tree, and shits on your car windshield, it's probably a bird...

 

[OldGoat]

Well if it flies to a target parking lot, lands on a tree, and shits on your car windshield, it's probably a bird...

If it posts simple thoughts it's?

 

[panamaican]

The overlap is with the white supremacists. Not everyone who carries a Confederate flag or plays with a little General Lee or has a Confederate flag is a white supremacist. All birds are animals doesn't mean all animals are birds...

And these white supremacist pictures have me cracking up. The photos themselves are probably the best argument against white supremacy I can think of.

Not everyone who carries the flag is a white supremacist or a racist or anything negative, true.

But when white supremacists can all agree that the symbols of the KKK, the Confederate flag, and the Nazi's are clear and proper conveyors of the white supremacist ideology then it becomes a little silly for someone else to say that those symbols symbolize something else. Especially when the original history supports the white supremacists and not the something else'ers.

 

[sickc0d3r]

If it posts simple thoughts it's?

... OldGoat?

 

[Arkain2K]

... OldGoat?

Judging on his utterly-worthless first response on page 1 of this discussion, I'd say you are absolutely right.

I was a little unsure too but she's in one of your previous pictures.

The photogenic plus-size KKK lady is prominently featured in almost every news article covering this rally. They should promote her to Grand Wizard of Public Relations!

Why do KKK supporters, confederate flag supporters, and Nazi supporters tend to go hand in hand?

And why do people try to convince me that the support for one of those 3 isn't based on the same reasoning as the support for the other 2?

Neo Nazis are jumping on the White Power bandwagon, but the KKK is a child of the Confederacy, much like the Dixiecrats.

In December 1865, just eight months after the Confederate Army's surrender, a group of six men gathered in Pulaski, Tennessee. Disillusioned by the loss of the war and what they saw as freed slaves living and behaving above their station, these former Confederate soldiers were also angry, James W. Loewen, the author of three books about race, politics and violence in American life, told me. (In case you are wondering, Loewen, a historian, produced "The Confederate and Neo Confederate Reader," the best-selling "Lies My Teacher Told Me," and,"Sundown Towns.")

Union army occupation in most of the South was only part of what bothered these men. There were also ongoing federal efforts to help freed slaves establish their economic lives and reunite the members of just-freed slave families once sold off and separated like spare parts.

To these men, this was pushing the country toward social conditions they considered intolerable. So, they revived a slavery-days tradition of doing night-time patrols on horseback. And since they often flouted the law during those rides -- beating, intimidating and sometimes torturing then murdering blacks, Jews, Catholics and the small numbers of white Protestants who supported the reforms -- they took steps to shield their identities. Gradually those disguises came to include the elaborate hoods and robes most people associate with the KKK.

By 1870 the country around them had ratified the Fourteen and Fifteenth Amendments, granting all blacks full citizenship and black men voting rights. Soon black and white Republicans claimed victories in some state and federal elections in the South. Small and large bands of KKK -- known by a variety of names in different parts of the South -- proliferated, wildly.

They claimed that their presence was essential to defend white rights and that white lives were themselves imperiled wherever reaches for racial equality made gains. The KKK's specialty, their key recruiting and support-building tool: making white Americans feel they were under siege.

Then two key things happened.

In 1890, Mississippi passed a state constitutional amendment making county clerks the arbiters of who was eligible to register and vote. With almost no exceptions, blacks were not. The Klan, other organized groups of white supremacists and many white elected officials, mostly Democrats, throughout the South reinforced that code with threats, arrests and violence. And the federal government did not intervene, as it had before. By 1907, almost every other Southern state had passed its own voter suppression amendment.

Around this time, men who Loewen calls Neo-Confederates (remember, women did not have the vote until 1920) won elected offices and took over at the helms of major civic organizations. These men started making a regular public display of Confederate symbols like the battle flag. The idea that the Civil War was a conflict about states rights also gained real traction around this time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kkk-are-rallying-in-south-carolina-10398890.html

 

[OldGoat]

Not everyone who carries the flag is a white supremacist or a racist or anything negative, true.

But when white supremacists can all agree that the symbols of the KKK, the Confederate flag, and the Nazi's are clear and proper conveyors of the white supremacist ideology then it becomes a little silly for someone else to say that those symbols symbolize something else. Especially when the original history supports the white supremacists and not the something else'ers.

Symbols mean different things to different people. It's really not a hard concept.

 

[5H3RD0G]

......................the KKK still exists, oh my how bored and uneducated they must be to only have hate for so long. Oh well let them confuse themselves. :icon_chee

 

[Mike]

My opinion is that the whole argument of "heritage, not hate" is ridiculous to begin with. The basis of the confederacy was slavery. The heritage in question is one of hate.

I'm sure you, and others, will come back with some bullshit "lost cause" argument about sovereignty and state's rights and whatever but that was all nonsense ginned up after the war to whitewash the reality of why the South seceded.

This. The very idea of associating the confederate flag with southern heritage was passed down by racists. It was a symbol of slavers and separatists revived to oppose the civil rights movement.

 

[in the]

You keep saying that and it is rather disingenuous. While the battle flag was never, on it's own, the flag of the confederacy it was seen by the confederacy as an important and popular symbol of the confederacy. This is indisputable as designs for the second flag of the confederacy almost uniformly included the battle flag. The official second and third flags of the confederacy included the battle flag in their design.

The confederate battle flag was recognized as an important symbol of the confederacy by 1863 by the confederacy even if it isn't recognized as such by you.

Right, a flag flown by people who primarily weren't slave owners. So yeah, you do have to force that narrative.

The white supremacy part of the latter national flags were pretty evident by the white background, and it wasn't the original flag's intent. For the thousandth time.

 

[in the]

I think you misunderstood me. Yes, most who fought for the Confederacy did not own slaves and thus weren't personally fighting to own slaves themselves but there is no doubt that the war itself was about slavery and the rebel flag is the battle flag of those who fought for slavery. They weren't personally fighting for their individual right to own slaves but had they won the slaves states would've continued to own slaves so in the grander scheme of things they were fighting for slavery.

I hate the industry of outrage as much as the next guy but even a broken clock is right twice a day. The Confederate battle flag had no business being on that State Capital building

They've done a piss poor job of that so far if these rallies are any indication

No, freedom of speech is not the key point here. The key point is whether or not a symbol of traitors and slavers is acceptable and freedom of speech/assembly just allows us to see it and note the racial divide on the issue.

I didn't say the war wasn't about slavery. I do think that was the deciding factor. However, the flag we're talking about wasn't the flag of slave owners or white supremacists. It was the flag of a majority of people who didn't own slaves. And after the war, it wasn't used to defend slavery and to my knowledge, wasn't used for really racist purposes till the KKK ditched Old Glory and went straight for the battle flag, which complicates the issue and is why I understand why people feel it has ties to racism - though the issue of slavery requires mental gymnastics.

I've already said I'm glad it's off the capitol grounds, though it wasn't on the capitol building. I'm also fine with Mississippi changing its state flag design.

I already posted about the SOCV fighting the KKK for decades over using the battle flag. It's not their fault (and the fault of the heritage crowd) that other people refuse to listen.

I didn't think I'd have to explain the freedom of speech/assembly issue. I meant that it should be what the world sees, not the images pushed by our media to generate controversies and race bait. I wasn't making some grand proclamation of what people are seeing. And as posted before in the image above, even our own government recognizes those who fought for the Confederates not as traitors, but as equal to American veterans. I understand if someone feels differently about this, and I don't feel like arguing the point other than to say a battle flag that wasn't a national flag of the Confederacy isn't traitorous.

 

[JDragon]

Symbols mean different things to different people. It's really not a hard concept.

To me, the Confederate flag is about feminism and forced gay marriage.

 

[Serana]

To me, the Confederate flag is about feminism and forced gay marriage.

lol

 

[OldGoat]

To me, the Confederate flag is about feminism and forced gay marriage.

Alright then! That's the spirit.

 

[UpaLoompa]

The white supremacy part of the latter national flags were pretty evident by the white background, and it wasn't the original flag's intent. For the thousandth time.

Sure, it's original intent was as a battle flag for a nation fighting to protect the enshrinement of white supremacy.

 

[PainIsLIfe]

My opinion is that the whole argument of "heritage, not hate" is ridiculous to begin with. The basis of the confederacy was slavery. The heritage in question is one of hate.

I'm sure you, and others, will come back with some bullshit "lost cause" argument about sovereignty and state's rights and whatever but that was all nonsense ginned up after the war to whitewash the reality of why the South seceded.

I don't have any lost cause argument. It's historical fact that only around 12% of southerners owned slaves - while nearly everyone's ancestors fought under the battle flag. The heritage is the fact that our great gradfathers fought with Lee and Stonewall and nothing you could say will make us think any less of them.

You can spout all you want, but the fact is that people still considered themselves loyal to their state over their country at the time and right or wrong - to use a southern expression - I can call my brother an idiot, but you best keep your mouth shut about him.