The Atlantic - The Muslim Overpopulation Myth

[FIMN]

There are a lot of factors when it comes to birth rates. I think it is obvious that the listed factors would have an effect, but they aren't the only factors involved.

That's kind of my point. The posters in this thread arguing that Islam is the overriding factor in terms of high birthrates, is simply ignoring that muslim countries look like any other when the issues in the OP are taken into account. With slight variances, from memory.

 

[Islam Imamate]

The population growth has seen an upswing recently and the main politicians are actually rallying up the population to reproduce even more.

https://en.trend.az/iran/society/2703327.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...n-attempts-to-reverse-falling-birth-rate.html

It seems like the Western sanctions are seen as a large motivating factor behind people not reproducing.

Both your sources claim that they have a falling birth rate, one that, if the Atlantic article is correct, is below replacement atm. They're projected to increase until 2050 and then decline so encouraging a higher birth rate is logical and the same thing Western government are trying to do.

 

[IDL]

That's kind of my point. The posters in this thread arguing that Islam is the overriding factor in terms of high birthrates, is simply ignoring that muslim countries look like any other when the issues in the OP are taken into account. With slight variances, from memory.

Yeah I guess it depends on what the claim is.

If it is "Islam is a factor leading to higher birth rates" that is probably true in a general sense (obviously it is complex)

If it is "Womens education and careers are factors in lowering birthrates in Islamic countries" then that is also true at the same time.

If it is "Islamic nations will always have high birthrates regardless of all other factors" then that is I think false.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Yeah I guess it depends on what the claim is.

If it is "Islam is a factor leading to higher birth rates" that is probably true in a general sense (obviously it is complex)

If it is "Womens education and careers are factors in lowering birthrates in Islamic countries" then that is also true at the same time.

If it is "Islamic nations will always have high birthrates regardless of all other factors" then that is I think false.

Based on what? The fact that Muslim populations respond to the same incentives that reduce or increase birth rates that other populations do?

 

[TheGreatA]

Both your sources claim that they have a falling birth rate, one that, if the Atlantic article is correct, is below replacement atm. They're projected to increase until 2050 and then decline so encouraging a higher birth rate is logical and the same thing Western government are trying to do.

It is not below replacement. It's still 0,5% above the United States, for example, at 1,2-1,3%.

I do not know where the article comes up with such claims.

Nevermind, I see you were talking about birth rates, while I talked about population growth.

 

[IDL]

Based on what? The fact that Muslim populations respond to the same incentives that reduce or increase birth rates that other populations do?

Probably similar to how religion is a factor in developed Western nations. I think having to do with value systems and priorities.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It is not below replacement. It's still 0,5% above the United States, for example, at 1,2-1,3%.

I do not know where the article comes up with such claims.

Nevermind, I see you were talking about birth rates, while I talked about population growth.

The source is the World Bank btw.

Probably similar to how religion is a factor in developed Western nations. I think having to do with value systems and priorities.

But most schools of Islamic law do not ban contraceptives. Even abortion is allowed early on in the pregnancy since Muslim believe the soul only enters the fetus at something like 80-120 days depending on the different schools of thought.

 

[Trotsky]

Cucking intensifies...

Pathological fear of women choosing Muslim men over you intensified

 

[IDL]

The source is the World Bank btw.

But most schools of Islamic law do not ban contraceptives. Even abortion is allowed early on in the pregnancy since Muslim believe the soul only enters the fetus at something like 80-120 days depending on the different schools of thought.

I don't think banning contraception is the only factor within the religious context though. Certainly it is one factor (and a significant one), but I am under the impression that there are religious groups in the US that are allowed to use it that still have higher birthrates than the non-religious average. Can't say I know the details of their contraceptive use though in terms of if it is banned under practicing Christian law. Muslims in Western nations also tend to have higher birth rates than the non-religious average as I understand it.

To me it makes sense that a belief system that places a high value on family, children, and traditional gender roles would lead to a higher birth rate regardless.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

 

[hillelslovak87]

You're talking in huge generalities here which is detracting from your point.

To act as though attitudes to female education in Islam are the same in Nigeria, Albania, Pakistan and Malaysia would be entirely wrong.

Islamic makes great claims about it's universality, yet the Arab Muslims typically have the most sway. You have the world's largest Sunni state, Saudi Arabia, terrible for women's rights. You have the world's largest Shia state, Iran, terrible for women's rights.

I have yet to see any Islamic country come close to the human standard that secular democracies in North America and across Europe have achieved on women's rights.

 

[hillelslovak87]

But it does because the myth often claims that these Muslim populations will overtake other ones when the data shows their populations decline under the same factors that reduce population growth in other populations.

Female education actually increased under the Islamic Republic and birth rates declined as well.


Of course they're not at the point that the West is, they're not as developed but they're on track. And according to the article Iran's birth rate is lower than that of the US right now.

Please provide data on ISIS improving education in it's domains, and please include something that has a clear metric on how the education is counted.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Please provide data on ISIS improving education in it's domains, and please include something that has a clear metric on how the education is counted.

ISIS? Where did I mention ISIS?

 

[Ruprecht]

Nowhere is it established or even claimed that they are having too many children because they are Muslim, simply that they are having too many children and it is problematic. Showing examples of societies (Muslim or not) acknowledging the same thing and counteracting it surely doesn't debunk this "Myth".

The myth they are referring to is the continuation of high Muslim birth rates amongst immigrants or amongst Muslim minorities. As it says in the article.

"The claim that Muslims have "too many children" is reliably powerful anywhere there's a sizable Muslim immigrant or minority population."

Like the old Eurabia myth that worked out "population projections" for immigration based on the highest Muslim birth rates in Niger, and claiming that would be sustained indefinitely by all Muslim immigrants to any other country.
In other words, a complete crock of shit.

 

[cincymma79]

That's kind of my point. The posters in this thread arguing that Islam is the overriding factor in terms of high birthrates, is simply ignoring that muslim countries look like any other when the issues in the OP are taken into account. With slight variances, from memory.

Can I have a list of Muslim counties where blasphemy and apostasy are legal

 

[nostradumbass]

Because they succeeded without converting from Islam. The reason it was high in those countries was because of lack of development in key areas like education for girls and family planning so they invested in those areas and successfully reduced their birth rates. Iran managed to decrease its birth rate as it transitioned from a secular country into a theocracy so obviously its not the religious values which are the cause of the high birth rates.

Its almost like you didn't read the article...

Sure I did. Doesn't matter though because the perception is there for a reason. Everythingg mentioned is also true of Jews in many societies, yet there's no perception of Jewish overpopulation.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Sure I did.

Then why didn't you address the substance of the article?

Doesn't matter though because the perception is there for a reason. Everythingg mentioned is also true of Jews in many societies, yet there's no perception of Jewish overpopulation.

Wat? The perception is there based on misinformation as the article shows.

 

[FIMN]

Islamic makes great claims about it's universality, yet the Arab Muslims typically have the most sway. You have the world's largest Sunni state, Saudi Arabia, terrible for women's rights. You have the world's largest Shia state, Iran, terrible for women's rights.

I have yet to see any Islamic country come close to the human standard that secular democracies in North America and across Europe have achieved on women's rights.

I mean, that's very nice. It doesn't reinforce what you originally posted, or my response, in terms of being overly broad and frankly not very useful for this discussion.

 

[trac209]

Myth or not I don’t think the world has a shortage of Muslims. And anyone saying wherever they immigrate or migrate to they don’t tend to push their way on the host society has their fucking head in the sand. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-25066688

This kind of shit has been the result of years and years of pandering to one religion and it’s over. The world is done being politically correct. We have Trudeau and his Khalid bitch and her m103 islamophobia motion. That’s like telling someone they aren’t allowed to be afraid of heights.

 

[FIMN]

Can I have a list of Muslim counties where blasphemy and apostasy are legal

That has nothing to do with birth rates so I'm not sure how this is relevant in terms of the thread.

Generally when you quote people you should aim to respond to something the person you are quoting has actually said. Otherwise what's the point.