Sword vs Staff and knife

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Which one of these 2 options would you give the edge to?

I think i would go with staff and knife. If someone can close the distance on you with a knife you are in a world of shit and your sword will not be very helpful in grappling distance.

Then, the staff is say, between 1m30 to 1m80 long. It has a lot of percussive power and will be more efficient long distance.

Of course the sword will beat both at mid distance, but then this means that the sword man has only a window of say, 1 meter, where he is in his element.

So my conclusion is: I think the staff can be used to create enough disruption to the swordman to effectively allow to break the distance, pull the knife and start grappling & stabbing.

I know that there are some halfswording and grappling methods using a sword out there, but I don't think it will match someone just grabbing you with one hand and stabbing 30 times with the other.

What do you think?

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

Seems like Reach Matters

 

[rmongler]

When you have armoured gauntlets, your sword is also your staff. Which is how higher class men-at-arms and dismounted knights with two handers handled business.

 

[Einheri]

Staff. The amount of leverage you can generate from a polearm, even the humble staff, is crazy.

 

[Oregonian89]

There was a historical source from the 1590s that talks a little about this. He does whine about Italian immigrants a lot but besides that it's interesting insight from a gentleman of the Elizabethan era in England.

"First I will begin with the worst weapon, an imperfect and insufficient weapon, and not worth the speaking of, but now being highly esteemed, therefore not to be unremembered. That is, the single rapier, and rapier and poniard.

The single sword has the vantage against the single rapier.

The sword and dagger has the vantage against the rapier and poniard.

The sword & target has the advantage against the sword and dagger, or the rapier and poniard.

The sword and buckler has advantage against the sword and target, the sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard.

The two handed sword has the vantage against the sword and target, the sword and buckler, the sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard.

The battle axe, the halberd, the black-bill, or such like weapons of weight . . . have advantage against the two handed sword, the sword and buckler, the sword and target, the sword and dagger, or the rapier and poniard.

The short staff or half pike, forest bill, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of perfect length, have the advantage against the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, the sword and target, and are too hard for two swords and daggers, or two rapier and poniards with gauntlets, and for the long staff and morris pike.

The long staff, morris pike, or javelin, or such like weapons above the perfect length, have advantage against all manner of weapons, the short staff, the Welch hook, partisan, or glaive, or such like weapons of vantage excepted, yet are too weak for two swords and daggers or two sword and bucklers, or two rapiers and poniards with gauntlets, because they are too long to thrust, strike, and turn speedily. And by reason of the large distance, one of the sword and dagger-men will get behind him.

The Welch hook or forest bill, has advantage against all manner of weapons whatsoever.

Yet understand, that in battles, and where variety of weapons are, among multitudes of men and horses, the sword and target, the two handed sword, battle axe, the black bill, and halberd, are better weapons, and more dangerous in their offense and forces, than is the sword and buckler, short staff, long staff, or forest bill. The sword and target leads upon shot, and in troops defends thrusts and blows given by battle axe, halberds, black bill, or two handed swords, far better than can the sword and buckler.

The morris pike defends the battle from both horse and man, much better than can the short staff, long staff, or forest bill. Again the battle axe, the halberd, the black bill, the two handed sword, and sword & target, among armed men and troops, by reason of their weights, shortness, and great force, do much more offend the enemy, & are then much better weapons, than is the short staff, the long staff, or the forest bill."

- George Silver
Paradoxes of Defense

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Seems like Reach Matters

It s s spear in your vid, bro. Not a staff. Spear > all in unarmoured combat.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

When you have armoured gauntlets, your sword is also your staff. Which is how higher class men-at-arms and dismounted knights with two handers handled business.

Soory i should have specified that this is unarmoured. But I don t get your comment about your sword being your staff.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Staff. The amount of leverage you can generate from a polearm, even the humble staff, is crazy.

So even without a knife, you think staff > sword?

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

It s s spear in your vid, bro. Not a staff. Spear > all in unarmoured combat.

Oh, wow, you got me now!



I guess all the times that goon with the long stick hit that other one in the face doesn't count......

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Oh, wow, you got me now!



I guess all the times that goon with the long stick hit that other one in the face doesn't count......

So you think a wooden staff > sword?

 

[Chesten_Hesten]

So you think a wooden staff > sword?

Likely, with the caveat, the staff guy understands a little bit about sword and staff play.

I'd say the sword guy would need to be a step or two better than the staff guy to make up the reach deficit, unless he can nullify it with environment.

Chances are he get's a clobbered, kneecapped, or blunted to the face.

 

[Einheri]

Spear > all in unarmoured combat.

It's very formidable in armour too. Ringeck's spear plays are in armour.

So even without a knife, you think staff > sword?

Yes, definitely. I've done very little staff work (and a fair bit of spear), mostly focussing on longsword/Messer/sword and buckler, and I would still take a staff over any sword with the possible exception of a greatsword.

 

[rmongler]

Soory i should have specified that this is unarmoured. But I don t get your comment about your sword being your staff.

Half-swording techniques. The ability to grab your own blade when wielding it opens up whole worlds of possibility in attack, defense, and grappling counterattacks - just like with a polearm, but fully in sharp metal form.

 

[Einheri]

Half-swording techniques. The ability to grab your own blade when wielding it opens up whole worlds of possibility in attack, defense, and grappling counterattacks - just like with a polearm, but fully in sharp metal form.

Halfswording doesn't have the range or leverage of a polearm though. It's pretty much an answer to fighting fully armoured opponents when you only have a sword, not an attempt to fill the niche of a polearm.

 

[rmongler]

Halfswording doesn't have the range or leverage of a polearm though. It's pretty much an answer to fighting fully armoured opponents when you only have a sword, not an attempt to fill the niche of a polearm.

The forms are isometric, is what I am saying. Especially when claymores and zweihanders are involved.

 

[StonedLemur]

How long is this knife is exactly sir?

 

[Einheri]

How long is this knife is exactly sir?

A Kriegsmesser!

 

[StonedLemur]

A Kriegsmesser!

That and a staff?
Yeah im taking the staff and knife every day sir.

@KBE6EKCTAH_CCP

 

[rmongler]

How long is this knife is exactly sir?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Nowadays can you flash a laser pointer in their eyes and then extricate, so as not to draw the ire of the judicial system?