Story of Jesus Christ was 'fabricated to pacify the poor', claims Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill

TheGreatA said:
But it's Africans who should have the biggest gripe against Arabs/Turks. It's just that there's nothing left to remind anyone about the slavery of Africans, there. Nobody left to rebel or outrage over oppression. Those people and their genetic lineages were all "extinguished".
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There are still some countries where Arabs rule over blacks. Mauritania is the biggest example.
 
ithinktheymad said:
I wonder how many kids went hungry so those could be made?
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Unfortunately, kids have died since the beginning of time; that's not a Christian invention-- and just destroying everything beautiful that a culture has ever produced wouldn't change that fact. Quite the opposite. (Mao actually tested this theory.)

In fact, do you know what people have turned to since the beginning of history when plague, famine, tyranny and warfare strike? You know what helps the *keep living*?

Hint: It's not edgy nihilism.
 
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Harmonica said:
<Lmaoo>

Says the guy who needs to believe in an afterlife in order to get through the day.
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LoL . . . and you called ME clueless . . . you know nothing about me or what I "need" to get through any day . . . .
 
Harmonica said:
Wrong. That's actually the only thing that matters when we're discussing the psychology of religion.
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What I mean is that regardless of the origin of the belief, or the psychological reasons, holding the belief makes you a Christian if the propositional content of the belief is that there if a God who is 3 in 1, and so on


Harmonica said:
No, what matters is the reason or the need behind the belief. Reasons for beliefs are more important than beliefs themselves. Let's say person A believes killing people is wrong and person B believes killing people is wrong. Are they automatically one and the same or one needs to look into the reasons for why they hold such beliefs? What if the only reason person A believes killing to be wrong is the fear of god or some other external authority, whereas person B holds human life sacred in a humanistic, secular sense? Are those two beliefs the same? No, they aren't, despite appearing that way at first glance.
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I agree that reasons for beliefs are important. Some times justification for a belief is required, or a reliable process that is truth conducive. But what I am referring to is that the propositional content of the belief, regardless of its origin, makes you a Christian, not the reasons for the belief. You can still be a Christian even though you have no justification or reliable process through which you formed the belief.

In your example A and B both hold a belief with the same propositional content, viz, that killing people is wrong. The proposition "it is wrong to kill people" is the same no matter how one arrives to it. Suppose A and B are at the airport, they travel separately and they want to go to their hotel, both stay at the same hotel. A takes train which takes him the long way, and then a bus, which drops him 100 meters from the hotel and he walk to the hotel. B takes taxi which takes him through the city centre, he also gets to the same hotel as A but much quicker. Both A and B got to the same hotel but through different routs and means. The proposition "it is wrong to kill people" will always be the same in every instance of it, no matter how you get to it, just like the hotel will be the same no matter what rout or means you take to get there.



Harmonica said:
Lol, no. I never said that. You're not listening at all.

You say two people are of the same type if and only if they believe one and the same thing, and I say two people are of the same type if the underlying need or reason for their beliefs is the same while the rest is nothing but makeup and is liable to change. You are being extremely superficial if you think beliefs in themselves are the end.
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I didn't say people are the same type if they believe the same thing. No two people can be identical in their metal content/attitudes.

You think that 2 people are of the same type (what do you mean same type?) if they happen to have arrived to their different beliefs through the same underlying needs or reasons?
 
luckyshot said:
Unfortunately, kids have died since the beginning of time; that's not a Christian invention-- and just destroying everything beautiful that a culture has ever produced wouldn't change that fact. Quite the opposite. (Mao actually tested this theory.)

In fact, do you know what people have turned to since the beginning of history when plague, famine, tyranny and warfare strike? You know what helps the *keep living*?

Hint: It's not edgy nihilism.
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Fantasy, wishful thinking and self delusion?
 
Harmonica said:
Wrong. That's actually the only thing that matters when we're discussing the psychology of religion.
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The problem is that you're the only one who seems really interested in the psychology of religion here. Particularly with regard to the policy discussion, the "psychology of religion" is a historical curiosity but not really anything more. It's like if someone came into a thread about physics and started attacking Democritus' religious views and what holding those views indicated about the emotional orientation of their followers. If Christian mythology accidentally led us to certain views about social organization and economics, that's interesting* but not really relevant to an objective evaluation of the objective accuracy of those views.

* Some might argue that it's evidence for the Truth of Christianity, while others might say it's just a coincidence or that the spread of Christianity is a result of it leading people toward objective truth.
 
meauneau said:
I see. But they aren't really Christians, they are atheist Christians.

Christianity is the a thing. If you modify it, then it is not the same.
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Why not, aren't Christians just followers of Christ? It's the Paulines that created that definition you are referencing. Why should that be applied to the Ebionites, Marconians, Gnostics, Nazarenes and other followers of Christ that did not ascribe to those doctrines?
 
Voodoo_Child906 said:
Why not, aren't Christians just followers of Christ? It's the Paulines that created that definition you are referencing. Why should that be applied to the Ebionites, Marconians, Gnostics, Nazarenes and other followers of Christ that did not ascribe to those doctrines?
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Right, but they all have belief in God in common, right? They believe that there is something supernatural about their religion.

My point is that if you do not hold the same beliefs as any of the denominations of Christianity you listed, then you cannot be said that you are one of them. You cannot say you are an Ebionite and yet not hold their beliefs to be true. Just because you share some moral principle with them doesn't make you one of them, you actually have to hold their fundamental beliefs.

Would you agree?
 
Jack V Savage said:
The problem is that you're the only one who seems really interested in the psychology of religion here. Particularly with regard to the policy discussion, the "psychology of religion" is a historical curiosity but not really anything more. It's like if someone came into a thread about physics and started attacking Democritus' religious views and what holding those views indicated about the emotional orientation of their followers. If Christian mythology accidentally led us to certain views about social organization and economics, that's interesting* but not really relevant to an objective evaluation of the objective accuracy of those views.

* Some might argue that it's evidence for the Truth of Christianity, while others might say it's just a coincidence or that the spread of Christianity is a result of it leading people toward objective truth.
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You are right.

As I've told JonesBones, this is the wrong forum if one wants to discuss these things seriously. This is primarily a daily politics forum, so it's ludicrous to expect much from it.
 
meauneau said:
You think that 2 people are of the same type (what do you mean same type?) if they happen to have arrived to their different beliefs through the same underlying needs or reasons?
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I'll reply to you when I find the time, I am too busy at the moment. If this thread gets lost in the meantime, I'll send you a PM.
 
CelticScholar said:
And there is no such thing as secularized Christianity. You either believe consciously, or you do not believe. "Secularized Christianity" makes about as much as sense as "Christianized Atheism". It's an oxymoron.
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Not exactly. Secularized religion can be religion that has lost much of its power and cultural influence. It doesn't sound right but it's a valid description. And there are Christian atheists, lots of them.
 
meauneau said:
Right, but they all have belief in God in common, right? They believe that there is something supernatural about their religion.

My point is that if you do not hold the same beliefs as any of the denominations of Christianity you listed, then you cannot be said that you are one of them. You cannot say you are an Ebionite and yet not hold their beliefs to be true. Just because you share some moral principle with them doesn't make you one of them, you actually have to hold their fundamental beliefs.

Would you agree?
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No I wouldn't agree, we are starting with a different definition of "Christianity". Christians to me are followers of Christ, and that's it no other requirement needed. It seems like you believe a Christian can only be a follower of Christ that believes in the doctrines of Paul. There were many different forms of Christianity in the early church believing in very different things, just because the Pauline's had the most swords and slaughtered the rest doesn't make their doctrine true.

Ebionites Christians - Believed Jesus Christ was the Jewish Messiah
Marconian Christians - Dualists and rejected the old testament, believed Christ was a manifestation of the Greek Logos
Gnostic Christians - Hellenized, Platonic and Dualist followers of Christ
Pauline Christians - Syncretic blend of Hellenism, Judaism and Zorastrian Dualism

They were all followers of Christ so they are all Christians but believe different things.
 
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Pacifying the poor is just good business. Whether you do it with Christianity, food stamps, or reality TV, is irrelevant.

Historically, people in positions of influence used Christianity as a tool to keep masses in check, yes. But it is not the only powerful religion/philosophy to have been twisted or manipulated by people in power to serve their agenda.
 
Harmonica said:
You are right.

As I've told JonesBones, this is the wrong forum if one wants to discuss these things seriously. This is primarily a daily politics forum, so it's ludicrous to expect much from it.
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I think anything can be discussed seriously in any forum, but this is just the wrong thread for that kind of thing (at least the subbranch of it that Jones was starting). My point is that reason exists outside of history, though historical events can lead us to discover reason.
 
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Harmonica said:
<Lmaoo>

Says the guy who needs to believe in an afterlife in order to get through the day.
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Everyone gets that there is more to this life than what we get.

An infinite number of galaxies to this universe, an infinite number of dimensions in this universe, and probably an infinite number of universes all but seals the idea that there is more out there. Also that we are part of it a safe we speak.

I actually think some nasty people decided to cheapen our existence by getting other people to become nihilistic by brainwashing so when these people continue their crimes and oppression they are only met with apathy and "nothing matters"
 
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