STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI

[IamStryker]

Here is a great breakdown of why The Last Jedi is a bad movie in general. Not just a bad star wars movie. A bad movie.

 

[IamStryker]

ya this movie is filled with feminist bullshit. Not one man can do anything right in this film without some dumb bitch telling him how to do something right. Rey was dropping like lessons to luke for gods sake.

Poe was an idiot who had to be taught lessons by both Laia and purple hair girl. Lets not forget that poe caused a mutiny and is forgiven 5 minutes later. In a universe where motherfuckers are fighting for their lives im guessing poe would of been thrown out to space

What's even dumber is that it all could have been avoided if they would have just TOLD Poe the plan.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

One thing the OT firmly established is Jedi go into exile/hiding when shit fucks up and are needed the most.

How is Luke any different from established lore?

Well then you gathered the wrong information from the OT.

They aren’t in hiding because they don’t want to help out, they hide because they can’t do anything to remedy the situation and wait for the correct moment.

It’s like you never even watched the Fn movies.


What good would Yoda and Kenobi have been if they were both dead.

They waited and the force helped them on their way. It’s really that simple

 

[minute bull]

What she did without any or little training was very powerful. Like defeating Kylo in the last movie.

Last movie? What about THIS movie?

It's amazing that the director thought that Luke dodging a little bit as a hologram and then dying from it was fun and awesome. Luke was far more interesting and entertaining when he was a kid.

So were you. I can only assume.

It took me a while, but I figured out why you double Y homo-somes don't like the movie. You've been telling me these reasons I couldn't buy, but it finally hit me.

THE LAST JEDI is uncool.

It's not cool enough for you. Rose is lame. She's not hot like her sister. Luke doesn't myearh myearh with his lightsaber enough. There's not enough pew-pew-pew. There's too much restraint. Too much retreating. Too much moderate action. Not enough do or die.

STAR WARS isn't cool enough for you people. That's why no interest in the next one. That's why #notmystarwars. There's our boogieman.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya, Mr.s Too Cool For Boolshit Guys.

The WHOLE movie was about finding Luke. All the subplots revolved around getting that map back to the rebels.

If you listen to the commentary track you'll hear from Abrams how the importance of each scene was the emotional tenor between onscreen characters. None of whom really spoke about Luke Skywalker but in the vaguest terms.

Let's take the lightsaber discovery, which is incidental and not at all set-up by the Lupita character. We don't even know how she came by it -- she just has it. It's not even really a clue, but it does establish a rush of unexplained images. Unexplained in their individual contexts, and unexplainable why she should receive such images. Strange King would simply chalk it up to feminism.

Similarly the Falcon and Han Solo -- both simply appear in the film without any sort of dramatic purpose except for nostalgic eye candy. Without reasonable context for appearing in the film, these serve only as fan service, fulfilling but a single criterion in what should be a multilayered structure of good storytelling. People also complained Han's death served no good purpose. It propped up his son, and no one even likes that guy.

None of this has anything to do with Luke, or why he was where he is.

Remember when the one droid activated the other droid? Because the other droid was missing the exact portion of a map the one droid was given by Max Von Sydow? Like how does a map point out a person?! What's that chain of events where someone created a map to Luke Skywalker but the map was broken into pieces? I don't know how that possibly happens, except in the writer's room when someone asks, "How are we going to structure this treasure map?" and people just see what kind of spaghetti sticks.

The answer is none.

Because while he was SAYING this is about Luke, what Abrams was DOING was concentrating on getting the band back together and rehashing the old fashioned hits.

Mryearh. Nyreaanggh.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I knew that was coming ^^

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

I must have used the Force.

 

[moreorless87]

I think you're letting preconceived notions get the better of you. For one thing, the more I think about it the more I think drawing connections between LJ and EMPIRE are spurious at best -- given how much you are faulting LJ in the comparisons, and between the OT and Prequels as well.

I understand why, because we must know the path we've come from to know the path we're on and where it's going, but I feel many of us are missing the forest for the trees doing this.

Sorry but to me this feels like a very cheap defence, just falling back to "you didn't get it" in the face of arguments that go into much more detail. This doesn't relate soley to the original films(although carrying forward Luke's character does commit you to making the link believable I'd say) but is also a criticism of TLJ as a piece of cinema in general in which I think the drama and motivations of key points are sold in a questionable and blunt fashion. The original films I think work as a comparison to how similar drama can be sold far more effective and subtley, Luke in ESB for example has his notions of heroism deconstructed across many scenes yet the film is still able to show this in a more subtle fashion both in motivation and in the complexity of the choice he's faced with. We get carried along with Luke's gungho heroism and are sympathetic to his choice to try and help his friends even if its potentially at the cost of the wider cause.

This is even more true of the Resistance plot with I think is simply very poor scripting indeed, Poe and Holdo's chaarcters are paper thin whilst Finn and Roses characters are making incredably simplistic points(pretty rich places can be built on dirty money? I'm shocked!) and honestly the politics behind the whole thing comes across as highly questionable, "follow your leaders because they know better, oh and come vague PC politics with no real depth"

 

[minute bull]

I must have used the Force.

You also know I respect you enough to not leave you with an emoji.

Here is a great breakdown of why The Last Jedi is a bad movie in general. Not just a bad star wars movie. A bad movie.

4:30 -- the terrible plot point of sacrificing an entire fleet to destroy one killer enemy.

Dude says it's a bad idea to sacrifice everyone for a single gambit. Which happens to occur previously in destroying not one by two Death Stars, some trade federation outpost, and Starkiller Base (but really it was just to save one girl). LJ acknowledges we need to grow up from this simplistic mentality of victory, and still manages to provide us with lightspeed bullet. At once culminating the final iteration of ultimate sacrifice for a singular goal while making it more difficult to continue such strategies in future films.​

4:40 -- hyperspace tracker

Yeah I found that convenient too, but to be fair it was set up in ROGUE ONE.​

6:20 -- stopping short of destination

Really? This is a plot problem? We're getting into a litany of things that are not plot problems. They are decisions and obstacles. Stuff like not having enough fuel from the outset while overlooking the fact the rebels have been caught and are escaping under the worst circumstances a poor misperception of good storytelling, not bad plotting. It's not spelling it out for Mr. I Write Teen Fiction here, but apparently his imaginary child he brings to movies with him needs some guidance. And that's a little odd, conjuring a fake child.

It's almost like a boogieman.​

10:00 -- sup with Rey?

This guy says there's no point in Rey being on the island. TFA establishes her as being powerful. She doesn't get training on the island.

Yeah, this film didn't put her on the island either, and if she doesn't get training and doesn't need training -- how is this film at fault for that? The only cool thing is the conversations between Rey and Ren but that could have happened anywhere....no. That had to happen on-island because that's where the last film left them!​

12:00 -- Rey as portrayed in FORCE AWAKENS

She's OP without explanation. We don't know what she wants.

TLJ answers this -- she's afraid of herself, of both her nothingness as depicted by her abandonment and her potential as depicted by her Force sensitivity. She is reckless, she did leave training early, she thought she figured it out, her flaw is doubt and hubris -- and yeah it's universal. Maybe because his imaginary child isn't a girl, or even a real person, that such aspects are missed.

Or maybe I'm just making this all up.​

14:00 -- Luke is a coward

His solution? He finds it more believable if Luke would have killed the apprentice and exiled himself because of that, which neatly erases Kylo. This math just doesn't fit.

He's got it wrong, too. Luke's not in exile because he turned Kylo bad -- Luke's in self-exile because he doubts himself, and believes that whatever he does leads to tragedy.​

16:20 -- dude literally gets into fight math

I think I don't need to say anything more about fight math. Even in fiction, MMath doesn't work when the Force + hubris is at work. It's not just power alone, but control of arrogance.​

19:00 -- hey, man. Thanks for sitting through all that, if you did.

It's not very good. I really wish it was, but you lot have argued better points. He fooled me. Saying he wrote, and he made up the fake kid thing as a learning tool. I thought to myself, this guy is going to make nineteen minutes worth it. And I was wrong. I can admit that. He didn't like the direction of the story, and that's not the same as plot problems. I can see how some things might fall under, "Come on, son, they should know better" but that's not objectively bad plotting. That just means this dude has seen this plot too many times before, and he thinks it's the same thing.​

And this is the issue with anecdotal evidence. Reviews these days aren't criticism. Film criticism adds something. A review that is more like an autobiographical accounts has little to do with the subject at hand. Worse yet, this writer abides by rules rather than principles. And so if plot sequences do not satisfy his rules (as governed here by a child), they therefore fail.

If he focused on the principles of storytelling, without being beholden to anecdotal "been there seen that," he may receive it a bit differently. He still can. It's possible.

 

[minute bull]

Sorry but to me this feels like a very cheap defence, just falling back to "you didn't get it" in the face of arguments that go into much more detail. This doesn't relate soley to the original films(although carrying forward Luke's character does commit you to making the link believable I'd say) but is also a criticism of TLJ as a piece of cinema in general in which I think the drama and motivations of key points are sold in a questionable and blunt fashion. The original films I think work as a comparison to how similar drama can be sold far more effective and subtley,

I've been drinking. But wat? Because I said I think you're too caught up with the idea that TLJ is trying to be ESB and you said all of that.

Then you said:

Luke in ESB for example

And then a whole lot of other stuff about how it was more effective, the first time. Which, sure, I won't argue.

This is even more true of the Resistance plot with I think is simply very poor scripting indeed, Poe and Holdo's chaarcters are paper thin whilst Finn and Roses characters are making incredably simplistic points(pretty rich places can be built on dirty money? I'm shocked!) and honestly the politics behind the whole thing comes across as highly questionable, "follow your leaders because they know better, oh and come vague PC politics with no real depth"

Oh indeed?

 

[IamStryker]

Last movie? What about THIS movie?

Same thing. Just off the top of my head.

1)Becoming proficient with the light saber out of no where.
2) Putting Luke on his back
3) Lifting the rocks (again with no real training)

So were you. I can only assume.

Dont know what you are talking about. My personality has changed from when I was a young man. Unlike Luke.


It took me a while, but I figured out why you double Y homo-somes don't like the movie. You've been telling me these reasons I couldn't buy, but it finally hit me.

Are you really insulting me because I don't think it's a good movie?

THE LAST JEDI is uncool.

It's not cool enough for you. Rose is lame. She's not hot like her sister. Luke doesn't myearh myearh with his lightsaber enough. There's not enough pew-pew-pew. There's too much restraint. Too much retreating. Too much moderate action. Not enough do or die.

STAR WARS isn't cool enough for you people. That's why no interest in the next one. That's why #notmystarwars. There's our boogieman.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya, Mr.s Too Cool For Boolshit Guys.


Really weird theory you have there. Out of the many complaints I have made none of them have anything to do with being "uncool". I'm 33 years old. I don't give a fuck what is cool or not.

 

[minute bull]

You're thirty-three years old and said why couldn't Luke be more fun and awesome just three posts ago. I believe it was Jesus, who died at 33, who first said, "Boy this is sure fun and awesome," and lo everyone said, "How grown-ass man that grown-ass man must be." Yes, I believe I read that in a bible or something.

PROFICIENT IN LIGHTSABER HOW?

"She knocked Luke on his ass ...." man, I said that first, not thinking anyone would actually say that. Not after Rey realizes Luke's closed himself off from the Force. He doesn't want to fight. And here's a newsflash -- that's the moment he instinctively returns to the Force.

 

[Clippy]

Can this be Star Wars: The last movie?

 

[IamStryker]

This guy says there's no point in Rey being on the island. TFA establishes her as being powerful. She doesn't get training on the island.

Yeah, this film didn't put her on the island either, and if she doesn't get training and doesn't need training -- how is this film at fault for that? The only cool thing is the conversations between Rey and Ren but that could have happened anywhere....no. That had to happen on-island because that's where the last film left them!

This film still needed to establish why she was on the island and it's story on that point was just not good. TFA built this up as being important but it was hardly that. Yeah she was powerful in the TFA which is weird in itself but this movie could have still given her a need for some kind of important training with Luke Skywalker. You really seem to be missing the point in your attempt to defend this film at all costs. The guys point is on why she is on the island with Luke. Her conversations with Kylo are NOT an answer to that question because they could have happened anywhere.

12:00 -- Rey as portrayed in FORCE AWAKENS

She's OP without explanation. We don't know what she wants.

TLJ answers this -- she's afraid of herself, of both her nothingness as depicted by her abandonment and her potential as depicted by her Force sensitivity. She is reckless, she did leave training early, she thought she figured it out, her flaw is doubt and hubris -- and yeah it's universal. Maybe because his imaginary child isn't a girl, or even a real person, that such aspects are missed.

Or maybe I'm just making this all up.

TLJ does not give a logical reason how she became so powerful. People thought her parents would serve as some kind of explanation but we all know how that turned out.

Luke's in self-exile because he doubts himself, and believes that whatever he does leads to tragedy.

Which is contrary to his personality set up in the original movies. Mark Hamill has big problems with this as well.

It's not very good. I really wish it was, but you lot have argued better points. He fooled me. Saying he wrote, and he made up the fake kid thing as a learning tool. I thought to myself, this guy is going to make nineteen minutes worth it. And I was wrong. I can admit that. He didn't like the direction of the story, and that's not the same as plot problems. I can see how some things might fall under, "Come on, son, they should know better" but that's not objectively bad plotting. That just means this dude has seen this plot too many times before, and he thinks it's the same thing.

Completely disagree. His complaints made a lot of sense and are similar to what most people who didn't like it are saying. "The little kid test" is just another way of saying that the movie did very poorly at making sense. Having a logical story that flowed like good movies should.

 

[minute bull]

This film still needed to establish why she was on the island and it's story on that point was just not good. TFA built this up as being important but it was hardly that. Yeah she was powerful in the TFA which is weird in itself but this movie could have still given her a need for some kind of important training with Luke Skywalker. You really seem to be missing the point in your attempt to defend this film at all costs. The guys point is on why she is on the island with Luke. Her conversations with Kylo are NOT an answer to that question because they could have happened anywhere.

YOU'RE missing the point. YOU'RE attempting to defend your opinion at all costs. Don't think I'm doing what YOU'RE doing.

TLJ didn't establish any of those questions, it was left holding the bag. And TLJ picks up that bag quite deftly.

She's on that island to gain a purpose by facing herself. No answers are elsewhere.

Which is contrary to his personality set up in the original movies. Mark Hamill has big problems with this as well.

Would you say it's inconsistent more to the calm, cool, and collected person he was in ROTJ? Because in ANH and ESB he is racked by doubt and indecision. Or do you not agree with that?



And once a-gain, let me re-iterate.

I do not think this film requires defense. I love it as it is. And there hasn't been a damn thing any of you have said that has managed to magically change, or even shit on that. Shit mightily though many of you have.

The time I spend discussing your points is only to provide another point of view to add to your own. Not override it. I firmly believe there will be some moment down the line where you'll say to yourself, for whatever circumstances, "Hey, this film turned out to be not too shabby after all."

So think of it as a good sort of curse. I curse you with a good film!

 

[IamStryker]

You're thirty-three years old and said why couldn't Luke be more fun and awesome just three posts ago.

Somehow you think people my age don't want movies to be fun and awesome?

I believe it was Jesus, who died at 33, who first said, "Boy this is sure fun and awesome," and lo everyone said, "How grown-ass man that grown-ass man must be." Yes, I believe I read that in a bible or something.

No idea what your point is here.

PROFICIENT IN LIGHTSABER HOW?

On the island with no instruction she starts easily twirling it around. Then there's the scenes with Luke and Kylo. How is that not proficient?

"She knocked Luke on his ass ...." man, I said that first, not thinking anyone would actually say that. Not after Rey realizes Luke's closed himself off from the Force. He doesn't want to fight. And here's a newsflash -- that's the moment he instinctively returns to the Force.

It's an explanation but was still a weird scene. I sure didn't expect to see a little girl with hardly any training put Luke Skywalker on the ground. The question still is there on how Rey has so much proficiency with the force in the first place? Luke might not want to fight but I would still think he would defend himself from someone who could purposely or accidentally kill him with a light saber.

 

[IamStryker]

YOU'RE missing the point. YOU'RE attempting to defend your opinion at all costs.

No, those are just my opinions.

TLJ didn't establish any of those questions, it was left holding the bag. And TLJ picks up that bag quite deftly.

Here we come to a huge flaw in all of these new movies. The directors and writers are not coming up with one logical and good story. I am not claiming that TLJ set up this stuff but it still needed to continue with the established story and do a good job which it didn't. I haven't even said much about the one scene that was so ridiculous that it really shows how much they care about this movie which is Leia appearing to die floating in space and then somehow waking up and using the force to essentially fly back to a ship. This was so weird and absurd even to hardcore star wars fans and the movie didn't even attempt to try to explain it.

She's on that island to gain a purpose by facing herself. No answers are elsewhere.

If that works for you then whatever dude but I find that to be incredibly weak. I really don't see why she couldn't have skipped the island completely because nothing really significant happened there. It was just finding out what happened to Luke and a little bit of back story.

Would you say it's inconsistent more to the calm, cool, and collected person he was in ROTJ? Because in ANH and ESB he is racked by doubt and indecision. Or do you not agree with that?

He wasn't anything like any of those movies. Wanting the Jedi to end is very odd and thinking about killing his apprentice is complete nonsense. Then there is how he is just leaving that kid to roam free killing people while he sits on an island. In the theater I couldn't believe that he would be killed off without even being physically at the location. Terrible.

 

[minute bull]

So, you have a problem with my using uncool, but no problem with I want it awesome and fun. Okay. Understood.

On the island with no instruction she starts easily twirling it around. Then there's the scenes with Luke and Kylo. How is that not proficient?

How is it proficient? And mind you I'm not speaking like some Valley girl, in a constant barrage of rhetorical questions.

The point is yes she's damn OP in TFA, but she isn't in TLJ. She doesn't do anything demonstrably more powerful in the second film, other than all the rocks. And I've been over the concept of Force + hubris, which also means its flipside Force + clarity. Given Rey's expression of OP isn't defeating the enemy but saving lives, it serves as the final concluding image of the theme of the film, which as blatantly stated by Rose.

As for why Luke didn't defend himself, he did. But as soon as he did, she relented, so no more need for defense. It was a quick fight. If you want forty minutes of myearrrrnggghhh fight, please see ROTS. Yes, Luke is wrong about wanting the Jedi to end! He's got the wrong idea through most of the film. Typical Skywalker. Always something, Yoda something. Hee hee hee.

Remember this?

They can't skip the island, because TFA puts them on the island!

 

[ufcfan4]

Here is a great breakdown of why The Last Jedi is a bad movie in general. Not just a bad star wars movie. A bad movie.

I like this dude.

Sam Harris-esque in his calm voice and articulate arguments, Joe!

I take issue with only a couple of things he said:

1- where he points out the inconsistency of Snoke absolutely schooling Rey, then Kylo putting down Snoke, then Ren still being unable to get the better of Rey.

Obviously not an mma fan. Style make fights, man. Ren>Snoke>Rey>Ren

2- when he says he could go on for an hour about the movie but no one would watch for an hour. Almost every other podcast I've ever sat through would disagree with that sentiment.


Otherwise, I'm on board. He had a lot of the same criticisms that many on here did. But I liked the freshness of his critique about going out of hyperspace into the middle of nowhere rather than having some sort of destination.

 

[IamStryker]

So, you have a problem with my using uncool, but no problem with I want it awesome and fun. Okay. Understood.

I don't get your point about "uncool" which is different than claiming that people in there 30's don't want fun movies. Yeah it would have been awesome to see Luke growing into a very powerful Jedi. What they did with him was just bad.

How is it proficient? And mind you I'm not speaking like some Valley girl, in a constant barrage of rhetorical questions.


The point is yes she's damn OP in TFA, but she isn't in TLJ. She doesn't do anything demonstrably more powerful in the second film, other than all the rocks. And I've been over the concept of Force + hubris, which also means its flipside Force + clarity. Given Rey's expression of OP isn't defeating the enemy but saving lives, it serves as the final concluding image of the theme of the film, which as blatantly stated by Rose.

When is she NOT proficient with it is a better question? These movies aren't showing a progression of her skill. She is just great from the get go. She shouldn't be defeating more powerful force users on her first try. It's nonsensical.

As for why Luke didn't defend himself, he did. But as soon as he did, she relented, so no more need for defense. It was a quick fight. If you want forty minutes of myearrrrnggghhh fight, please see ROTS. Yes, Luke is wrong about wanting the Jedi to end! He's got the wrong idea through most of the film. Typical Skywalker. Always something, Yoda something. Hee hee hee.

They can't skip the island, because TFA puts them on the island!

The one with Luke has some kind of explanation sure but when you put it with everything else she does it's still consistent with her being over powered. I would rather have seen Luke being shown to be stronger than her even without trying. Because it's Luke and because he should be stronger and wiser after all these years.

I never said anything about skipping the island. The island should have been more important than this. It was bad.

 

[minute bull]

She isn't more powerful in this than she was in the previous film either. Not against Ren. (Rocks aside.)

I like this dude.

Spoiler