So I got a „herniated disc warning“ when deadlifting

I typically don‘t DL. I snatch and squat. But I messed up my shoulder boxing and aggravated it with snatching like a month ago. So I figured I would DL while my shoulder gets better.

And yes I am aware that I shouldn‘t hurt my back DL 70Kg it‘s pathetic. My back has been healed for quite a while from the previous hernia and I have DL 70Kg in the past no problem, but that was barefoot powerlifting DL. This time I tried the „Oly snatch DL“ with weightlifting shoes, ass above knee and shoulders in front of bar. This places a LOT more pressure on the back than the powerlifting DL.

My conclusion here is that my natural ceiling on the snatch is like 50Kg. I‘ll never snatch 70Kg.

To answer your question I have been snatching 40Kg for the past 6 months or so.

FWIW I prefer doing squat and DL barefoot. It feels more stable and it puts you lower to the ground making DL easier but as @rikwebb notes, it's also a different angle than with shoes so it's easier to have your weight back, which also helps on "regular" DL.

I only started lifting with shoes again because I was struggling to snatch the empty bar without falling over, due to ankle ROM issues. But now that I've been able to snatch half-assedly for over a year, I'm thinking of trying it barefoot. I definitely prefer doing the other lifts that way.

It's interesting to me that we're snatching around the same weight. ~40 kg is about the most weight I can do a clean whipping motion, but anything above that I'm having to muscle (which I'm trying to avoid having to do). But I refuse to believe your ceiling is 50 kg. We've both seen totally weak ass looking dudes snatching BW+. So it's got to be a technique issue for us.
 
FWIW I prefer doing squat and DL barefoot. It feels more stable and it puts you lower to the ground making DL easier but as @rikwebb notes, it's also a different angle than with shoes so it's easier to have your weight back, which also helps on "regular" DL.

I only started lifting with shoes again because I was struggling to snatch the empty bar without falling over, due to ankle ROM issues. But now that I've been able to snatch half-assedly for over a year, I'm thinking of trying it barefoot. I definitely prefer doing the other lifts that way.

It's interesting to me that we're snatching around the same weight. ~40 kg is about the most weight I can do a clean whipping motion, but anything above that I'm having to muscle (which I'm trying to avoid having to do). But I refuse to believe your ceiling is 50 kg. We've both seen totally weak ass looking dudes snatching BW+. So it's got to be a technique issue for us.
Dude if Oly Deadlifting 70Kg fucked up my back, how am i supposed to snatch that weight?
 
Dude if Oly Deadlifting 70Kg fucked up my back, how am i supposed to snatch that weight?

Bro I'm not presuming to tell you what you can or can't do. I believe everyone knows their own body better than anyone else - especially if they've been training for many years as I know you have. But as your doppelganger it's my duty to inform you that injuring your back (when you're otherwise healthy and in shape) trying to DL 70 kg at around 78 kg BW (IIRC) sounds like it might be a form issue rather than a physical inability to handle that weight. For most folks, DL is their heaviest lift and for it to be the limiting factor on snatch sounds unusual (but not impossible).

Is it possible your back was rounded and/or did you jerk the weight off the ground using arm strength? If you did it with perfect form I would question whether barbell snatch is a safe lift for you to train. I mean if you got injured doing a 70 kg DL does it make sense to be doing the same motion with even 40 or 50 kg? For our BW, those are not even "novice" numbers for snatch let alone DL if we're doing proper form. If you have a chronic back issue (which it sounds like you might), perhaps hyperextensions and romanian DL with very light weight might be better as a substitute? Again I'm not presuming to diagnose you, just offering some thoughts as your bro.
 
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Bro I'm not presuming to tell you what you can or can't do. I believe everyone knows their own body better than anyone else - especially if they've been training for many years as I know you have. But as your doppelganger it's my duty to inform you that injuring your back (when you're otherwise healthy and in shape) trying to DL 70 kg at around 78 kg BW (IIRC) sounds like it might be a form issue rather than a physical inability to handle that weight. For most folks, DL is their heaviest lift and for it to be the limiting factor on snatch sounds unusual (but not impossible).

Is it possible your back was rounded and/or did you jerk the weight off the ground using arm strength? If you did it with perfect form I would question whether barbell snatch is a safe lift for you to train. I mean if you got injured doing a 70 kg DL does it make sense to be doing the same motion with even 40 or 50 kg? For our BW, those are not even "novice" numbers for snatch let alone DL if we're doing proper form. If you have a chronic back issue (which it sounds like you might), perhaps hyperextensions and romanian DL with very light weight might be better as a substitute? Again I'm not presuming to diagnose you, just offering some thoughts as your bro.
Bro thanks alot for giving your thoughts on the matter it is appreciated! I literally asked for your opinion so….

Yeah no IDK what to think about this DL thing. My form was all right and I have lifted that weight in the past. 70Kg is kid‘s play as you rightfully observe. Maybe I have a huge weakness in my back for lifting stuff off the ground, while I have no problem squatting higher weights and wrestling.

My goal right now is to get back into combat sports carefully. I think I should be fine. Then after a while I‘ll start lifting again but I‘ll only squat I think.
 
So can the spine send signals like that without being already fucked?
If you felt fine after 2 weeks, then it's more likely it was a muscle strain or possibly a slight bulge disc (bulge is more common for moderate injuries and heals usually quicker).
Bro, didn't Oberst tell all of us deadlifting is bad for the back? Come on man. The only reason why the deadlift is popular is because teenagers think it's cool. But it truly is an overrated exercise.

Deadlifting should be delegated as a test of strength for worthy powerlifters like myself and a few others. It should never be a staple in anyone's training program.
100% agree and this is coming from someone whose worked in health and wellness for 15 years. There's a reason most high schools and colleges are switching to trap/hex bar deadlifts. Way less risk on the back but you're still getting almost all of the strength benefits. Even the local pro athletes in my area (NHL team Dallas Stars and former boxing world champ Errol Spence Jr) I've personally witness both doing trap bar only deadlifts.

I really don't see why anyone would use old school deadlifts as the staple of a weekend warriors training program.
 
As I was deadlifting the bar from the ground I felt a little snap in my lower spinal area and right away that unmistakable hernia pain around the lower back/hips/glutes appeared. I stopped right away and went on pain killers. Thought fuck me here we go again (I herniated my back 2 years ago but it was fully healed).

To my astonishment though, the acute phase was nowhere near where it was 2 years ago and it stopped bothering me after a week.

Now after 2 weeks I feel like my range of motion is back and I am like pretty much painless.

The orthopedic doctor thinks that it was just a muscle cramp but WTF, it REALLY felt just like the herniated disc I had 2 years ago.

So can the spine send signals like that without being already fucked?

Paging my bro @ChickenBrother and other advisor @Volador whose opinion I value as well. If you guys care to read my OP…
What's up Sherbro. Appreciate the call out. I don't post lately because I'm overwhelmed with life stuff. I can give you my opinion based on what you said, for whatever it's worth. I'm not a professional or anything. I go by what I read, investigate, and some personal experience of being a gym rat and managing my own training. I do read extensively, but that's all.

"To my astonishment though, the acute phase was nowhere near where it was 2 years ago and it stopped bothering me after a week." That's good. I would just go back to training and don't worry about it. Pain doesn't suggest there is a serious injury, just by itself. There are studies showing that the correlation between some physical change and pain is tenuous. You can have one without the other. There's people with hernias detectable through imagery that feel no pain, and can train normally. And there's people with back pain and no particular diagnosis, who can't. There's a whole field of "pain science" dedicated to studying that stuff. Read this (written by actual doctors who train):


Also, listen to this if you want a discussion with different professionals (who also train):



Of course, return to training with some intelligence and don't go straight to a PR attempt after not training for a week, reduce tempo/load if needed, and so on. But I'm sure you already know these common sense recommendations. Also, if you were trying a new loaded position that you're not used to (snatch grip DL), I don't think feeling pain is uncommon, even with light weights. Sometimes the body reacts weirdly to that. Just introduce the new movements gradually.

"Now after 2 weeks I feel like my range of motion is back and I am like pretty much painless." Then it means you should just go back to training.

"The orthopedic doctor thinks that it was just a muscle cramp" If someone who checks out injuries for a living tells you this, it's a good idea to listen to them.

"it REALLY felt just like the herniated disc I had 2 years ago." I'm pretty sure that this idea of a "warning" of a specific type of injury based on some sensation is something you just made up in your mind. How do you know your memory of some sensation form 2 years ago is accurate? How do you know if your mind just made a connection because it's a similar area, and you were scared? How do you know if a muscle strain can't feel similar to your other injury? Answer: You don't know any of these things, and nobody does, because no one knows how you felt. So, if it's not hurting or impeding movement now, I wouldn't worry about it.

"So can the spine send signals like that without being already fucked?" Yes, pain that resolves in a week is not a sign of some catastrophic injury. Well, define injury, or define "being fucked". If you ruptured some fibers in a muscle, felt some pain, and then felt fine after a week, would you call this an "injury"? Unless you're willing to get an MRI every single time something hurts slightly, this is not answerable, so maybe yes, and maybe no. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. How intensely you feel pain may be affected by many things, like your mental state, stress, your environment, your ideas about pain, and so on, not just the physical changes you experience. You may give someone a placebo painkiller and the pain becomes less intense. Does this mean the "injury" changed? I don't know. If the problem goes away and the symptoms resolve, then just go back to your training (in a smart way, gradually, with necessary modification in load/tempo/volume, etc). Everyone that does sport hurts sometimes. If you have noticeable symptoms, i.e., suddenly can't move your right leg or your left testicle becomes the size of Bigfoot Silva's head, yeah go to a doctor.

Random note: Oberst's position is considered almost universally bullshit by most qualified trainers if you look around. Ask someone to present you with some evidence that the deadlift is a particularly dangerous movement, and you will find they can't show you anything other than some handwavy broscience. You just need to take care with load management, volume, etc. But that applies to every lift, not the deadlift in particular. Just because someone is big and strong, it doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about. Otherwise Rich Piana would be the ultimate trainer. If you're trying to lift as heavy as possible and compete, there is some risk to that, sure. But if you're just trying to get strong, just take your time with it; no movement is inherently dangerous. Look up the reports on injury rates in powerlifting, and you'll find they are similar to other individual sports, and actually on the low end of that.
 
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What's up Sherbro. Appreciate the call out. I don't post lately because I'm overwhelmed with life stuff. I can give you my opinion based on what you said, for whatever it's worth. I'm not a professional or anything. I go by what I read, investigate, and some personal experience of being a gym rat and managing my own training. I do read extensively, but that's all.

"To my astonishment though, the acute phase was nowhere near where it was 2 years ago and it stopped bothering me after a week." That's good. I would just go back to training and don't worry about it. Pain doesn't suggest there is a serious injury, just by itself. There are studies showing that the correlation between some physical change and pain is tenuous. You can have one without the other. There's people with hernias detectable through imagery that feel no pain, and can train normally. And there's people with back pain and no particular diagnosis, who can't. There's a whole field of "pain science" dedicated to studying that stuff. Read this (written by actual doctors who train):


Also, listen to this if you want a discussion with different professionals (who also train):



Of course, return to training with some intelligence and don't go straight to a PR attempt after not training for a week, reduce tempo/load if needed, and so on. But I'm sure you already know these common sense recommendations. Also, if you were trying a new loaded position that you're not used to (snatch grip DL), I don't think feeling pain is uncommon, even with light weights. Sometimes the body reacts weirdly to that. Just introduce the new movements gradually.

"Now after 2 weeks I feel like my range of motion is back and I am like pretty much painless." Then it means you should just go back to training.

"The orthopedic doctor thinks that it was just a muscle cramp" If someone who checks out injuries for a living tells you this, it's a good idea to listen to them.

"it REALLY felt just like the herniated disc I had 2 years ago." I'm pretty sure that this idea of a "warning" of a specific type of injury based on some sensation is something you just made up in your mind. How do you know your memory of some sensation form 2 years ago is accurate? How do you know if your mind just made a connection because it's a similar area, and you were scared? How do you know if a muscle strain can't feel similar to your other injury? Answer: You don't know any of these things, and nobody does, because no one knows how you felt. So, if it's not hurting or impeding movement now, I wouldn't worry about it.

"So can the spine send signals like that without being already fucked?" Yes, pain that resolves in a week is not a sign of some catastrophic injury. Well, define injury, or define "being fucked". If you ruptured some fibers in a muscle, felt some pain, and then felt fine after a week, would you call this an "injury"? Unless you're willing to get an MRI every single time something hurts slightly, this is not answerable, so maybe yes, and maybe no. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. How intensely you feel pain may be affected by many things, like your mental state, stress, your environment, your ideas about pain, and so on, not just the physical changes you experience. You may give someone a placebo painkiller and the pain becomes less intense. Does this mean the "injury" changed? I don't know. If the problem goes away and the symptoms resolve, then just go back to your training (in a smart way, gradually, with necessary modification in load/tempo/volume, etc). Everyone that does sport hurts sometimes. If you have noticeable symptoms, i.e., suddenly can't move your right leg or your left testicle becomes the size of Bigfoot Silva's head, yeah go to a doctor.

Random note: Oberst's position is considered almost universally bullshit by most qualified trainers if you look around. Ask someone to present you with some evidence that the deadlift is a particularly dangerous movement, and you will find they can't show you anything other than some handwavy broscience. You just need to take care with load management, volume, etc. But that applies to every lift, not the deadlift in particular. Just because someone is big and strong, it doesn't mean that they know what they're talking about. Otherwise Rich Piana would be the ultimate trainer. If you're trying to lift as heavy as possible and compete, there is some risk to that, sure. But if you're just trying to get strong, just take your time with it; no movement is inherently dangerous. Look up the reports on injury rates in powerlifting, and you'll find they are similar to other individual sports, and actually on the low end of that.

Thank you good sir for your reply as requested. Will give all of this adequate thoughts. If I may though, spinal disc pain is not imagined or subjective, it is very real and unmistakable for anyone who has had hernias.
 
Thank you good sir for your reply as requested. Will give all of this adequate thoughts. If I may though, spinal disc pain is not imagined or subjective, it is very real and unmistakable for anyone who has had hernias.
I'm not questioning that you felt pain, of course. However, I don't see how the idea that it is unmistakable with anything else can be something you feel so sure of. Unless you've experienced every other kind of pain, you don't know how those feel or if they are similar or not.
 
Welcome to the club.

I've had a few MRIs throughout the years with my very first disc being L5. Wont go over that, but it got better and I went back into the gym.


Every so often, I'd get a familiar pain that scares me out of the gym. I'd cool down, sometimes got on prednisone, restart.

Last one was the worst and it was from leaning back on a bench with heavy dbs to flat press. Had to go to ER.

Deadlifts are my favorite and feel amazing when I lift heavy. But jesus christ, it just takes 1 bad rep to fuck your life. For what? To say you lifted it? I completely understand the desire, but being worth it is doubtful.

On the flip side, I've not been religious in the gym for a couple months. Know what hurts? Lower back. When I go in and do some heavy lifting, that shit goes away.


Sucks tho. I can get hurt from any lift any time.
 
I'm not questioning that you felt pain, of course. However, I don't see how the idea that it is unmistakable with anything else can be something you feel so sure of. Unless you've experienced every other kind of pain, you don't know how those feel or if they are similar or not.
But bro no human has experienced every possible kind of pain, yet in many cases we are able to recognise some pains as a condition we have because we do know how it feels.
 
But bro no human has experienced every possible kind of pain, yet in many cases we are able to recognise some pains as a condition we have because we do know how it feels.
That’s a very general statement, so I guess, sure, I agree. I was referring to this particular case. I wouldn’t immediately assume that you broke your back thpinal, just because you felt a pain that reminded you of something else. Especially when every other sign points to the contrary.
 
If you are having firm issues with the dl, you should get formally coached on the lift. I was having lower back pain after a hiatus and return to lifting and realized I was pulling with too much extension in my lower back. I saw a starting strength coach and he cleaned it up in no time and I’ve been good since; I really believe their form videos are the best around, although I do see the other side regarding their squat technique.
 
If you are having firm issues with the dl, you should get formally coached on the lift. I was having lower back pain after a hiatus and return to lifting and realized I was pulling with too much extension in my lower back. I saw a starting strength coach and he cleaned it up in no time and I’ve been good since; I really believe their form videos are the best around, although I do see the other side regarding their squat technique.
Actually i do get plenty of formal weighifting coaching. I am in a oly club.

In fact what I know contributed is that it was the first time I was deadlifting using the olympic floor lift (where your shoulders are in front of the bar and your ass above your knees and you pull with much more back than the powerlifting DL where you push with your heels and your ass is lower).

This is what would have happened if I has tried to snatch that weight.
 
How is your mobility?
At the moment it s excellent. If I didn't know it happened I would hardly notice in daily life.
I am thinking of starting judo lightly next week but I am scared of fucking myself up again.
 
Actually i do get plenty of formal weighifting coaching. I am in a oly club.

In fact what I know contributed is that it was the first time I was deadlifting using the olympic floor lift (where your shoulders are in front of the bar and your ass above your knees and you pull with much more back than the powerlifting DL where you push with your heels and your ass is lower).

This is what would have happened if I has tried to snatch that weight.
Damn that sucks man. I pull with my hips higher but when I lower them the bar goes further away from the middle of my foot and hurts my back. Just different anatomies I think. The best cue I’ve used yet is pushing your belly between your thighs, it’s from starting strength but really is the only way I can set my back without over arching it which has caused me issues in the last. Anyways I hope the back gets better!
 
Damn that sucks man. I pull with my hips higher but when I lower them the bar goes further away from the middle of my foot and hurts my back. Just different anatomies I think. The best cue I’ve used yet is pushing your belly between your thighs, it’s from starting strength but really is the only way I can set my back without over arching it which has caused me issues in the last. Anyways I hope the back gets better!
Yep. I have come to the conclusion that O lifting doesn t agree with my morphology. Not only mobility but body proportions. I have DL 70 Kg in the past no problem. But using the O lifting technique my spine just told me "just no".
 
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