Sanda/Sanshou throws

[QnA]

Most Judo competitions don't allow a lot of Sanda trips/throws, as they are considered illegal. However, I do think (some) of them would fair well in MMA. Though, the leg grabbing does throw it off quite a bit, against someone lanky such as Jon Jones they seem effective in theory.

Anyway, take a look at some of these. Whenever I use Sanda throws in Judo (I took Sanda for a bit first before switching) my opponents usually get furious. Same if I break to the thumb every time this one guy grabs my forearms, which is all the time.

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[Uchi Mata]

That double leg he leads off with is pretty much exactly how GSP does it. A lot of those throws work better in MMA than pure grappling because they're punch counters/rely on a more upright stance. But they do work for sure.

 

[reddragon343]

Dude...I'm not hating...but don't you think you should be concentrating on doing well...judo throws in a judo class? HAHA. But if ur doing it to diversify your MMA arsenal, eh, what do I know.

But the thumb breaking thing is kinda unnecessary I feel. Unless you are talking about cutting away from grips,not sure how i'm reading your post.

Sanda is cool-awesome btw.

 

[shunyata]

When you try to double leg people in Judo and they get mad it has nothing to do with Sanda and everything to do with double legs being banned in Judo.


You might as well say "all the dudes at that IBJJF focused BJJ school get really upset when I do reaping heel hooks as a white belt".

 

[smart.feller]

The difference between a double leg and a reaping heel hook is that the heel hook is a dangerous move with a small tapping window that could cause extreme injury and a double leg is a move that judoka have failed to address an adequate defense to.

Seriously, they put the "rules" into play to stop wrestlers from winning judo matches. Same thing with banning straight pulling guard because many judo black belts will get schooled by BJJ blue belts on the ground because it is entering newaza without attempting a throw.

I understand that judo is primarily about throws, but ground fighting is part of it, whether by submission or pin, and I can't understand the logic of banning moves that do not overly endanger safety just to save face for your art so it is not overtaken by more skilled opponents. At that point your art, or at least the legitimacy of the competition, has lost face.

 

[ChainFlow]

The difference between a double leg and a reaping heel hook is that the heel hook is a dangerous move with a small tapping window that could cause extreme injury and a double leg is a move that judoka have failed to address an adequate defense to.

Seriously, they put the "rules" into play to stop wrestlers from winning judo matches. Same thing with banning straight pulling guard because many judo black belts will get schooled by BJJ blue belts on the ground because it is entering newaza without attempting a throw.

I understand that judo is primarily about throws, but ground fighting is part of it, whether by submission or pin, and I can't understand the logic of banning moves that do not overly endanger safety just to save face for your art so it is not overtaken by more skilled opponents. At that point your art, or at least the legitimacy of the competition, has lost face.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. There were no wrestlers or BJJ bbs tearing up judo circuits.

They banned them for aesthetic reasons. Just as silly in its own way, though.

 

[QnA]

Dude...I'm not hating...but don't you think you should be concentrating on doing well...judo throws in a judo class? HAHA. But if ur doing it to diversify your MMA arsenal, eh, what do I know.

But the thumb breaking thing is kinda unnecessary I feel. Unless you are talking about cutting away from grips,not sure how i'm reading your post.

Sanda is cool-awesome btw.

Yeah, talking about cutting away from grips. It's a very basic concept he somehow can't get a hold of, you break towards the thumb to break the grip. Funny to watch him get pissed though.

I'm not really planning on doing any real MMA, it's just that sometimes I'll see the opening for a throw usually banned when in sparring, and go for it without realizing it until it's too late. More my problem than anything, and lately I've actually stopped.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. There were no wrestlers or BJJ bbs tearing up judo circuits.

They banned them for aesthetic reasons. Just as silly in its own way, though.

Yeah, it had nothing to do with wrestlers. The countries that control the IJF and are really good at Judo are not countries where wrestling is even that big of a deal, and other than a few Mongolians no one was doing particularly well with a very leg attacking style.

What was happening was that people would get up a minor score or a penalty on their opponent and start spamming double legs or fireman's carries with no hope of getting a throw, just stalling. There was a gold medal final that followed this pattern at the Olympics, and there was so much outrage after that that they banned leg attacks, eventually banning them entirely even as counters. It was to preserve the aesthetics of Judo and promote going for big throws, much like many people want to eliminate positions like the 50/50 from BJJ because so much stalling takes place there.

However, it was a stupid thing to do because there are a lot of legit leg attacks that score full ippon when done right, and banning them is just hurting Judo as a combat sport by making it more specialized and unrealistic. They had rules against stalling and false attacks, all they needed to do was start calling those penalties and the problem would have been solved. One of the reasons I do very little Judo these days was this ridiculous rule change which restricts the game so much. As for groundwork, I think that was a spectator friendliness thing as well but is a much older rule.

 

[ChrmnMa0]

If it was good enough for Kano, it is good enough for you

 

[QnA]

That double leg he leads off with is pretty much exactly how GSP does it. A lot of those throws work better in MMA than pure grappling because they're punch counters/rely on a more upright stance. But they do work for sure.

I thought GSP was in to ball kicking.

 

[Einarr]

Seriously, they put the "rules" into play to stop wrestlers from winning judo matches. Same thing with banning straight pulling guard because many judo black belts will get schooled by BJJ blue belts on the ground because it is entering newaza without attempting a throw.

Umm, no. What got Morote Gari (double leg) banned was the tactic of: avoid gripping > dive at the legs > fail > turtle and stall for a stand-up > repeat until you get a score.

What the IJF should have done is penalize stalling on the ground, allow more time in ne-waza and make Back Mount count as a pin, unfortunately their answer was to outright ban the Morote Gari and to limit leg grabs to counters and secondary attacks.

 

[RJ Green]

nothing's illegal at judo practice...

 

[smart.feller]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. There were no wrestlers or BJJ bbs tearing up judo circuits.

They banned them for aesthetic reasons. Just as silly in its own way, though.

Blackbelt magazine actually had an article on the emergence of wrestlers heading into judo...and that was in 1970. http://web.archive.org/web/20040220055905/http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1970/jan70/jud.html

Naidan Tuvshinbayar trained in judo for 10 years and then won an olympic gold.

BJ Penn competed as a judo white belt in a tournament in 1997, at which point he'd been training BJJ for roughly one year and was a BJJ blue belt, and he was tapping black belts throughout the whole thing.

There are other instances of "hybrids" running through judo competitions...can you give me a source that said it was for aesthetics?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Blackbelt magazine actually had an article on the emergence of wrestlers heading into judo...and that was in 1970. http://web.archive.org/web/20040220055905/http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1970/jan70/jud.html

Naidan Tuvshinbayar trained in judo for 10 years and then won an olympic gold.

BJ Penn competed as a judo white belt in a tournament in 1997, at which point he'd been training BJJ for roughly one year and was a BJJ blue belt, and he was tapping black belts throughout the whole thing.

There are other instances of "hybrids" running through judo competitions...can you give me a source that said it was for aesthetics?

10 years is a long time dude. Claudio Calasans trained Judo for years before getting into BJJ and hasn't been doing BJJ that long, when he wins people don't talk about the death of BJJ. Same with Leo Leite. BJ competed at a local tournament against recreational players when he was essentially almost a full time grappler already (he was a purple belt at the time, not a blue belt). I'm willing to bet that if any of the US Olympic Judo team went to a local BJJ tournament and entered the purple belt division they'd do okay.

If your examples are a guy who did 10 years of Judo after having already wrestled and a guy who went on to win BJJ worlds beating some recreational BBs, that's not very convincing. If wrestling and BJJ were so much better at winning Judo matches, then why have no pure wrestlers put on a gi and medalled at big international tournaments? They're different sports, and the IJF wanted to accentuate those differences. I was and am not a fan of the changes because they move Judo further from an effective martial art, but the motivations were aesthetic. Here's the closest thing I could find to an official statement in English:

http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Judo/Features/2013/January/29/USA-Judo-Supports-IJF-Rule-Changes-As-Best-for-The-Sport.aspx

 

[Uchi Mata]

nothing's illegal at judo practice...

Depends on the gym. Touch a leg and get yelled at is no fun, and a lot of gyms follow IJF rules to the letter in randori.

 

[Zankou]

Depends on the gym. Touch a leg and get yelled at is no fun, and a lot of gyms follow IJF rules to the letter in randori.

That's pretty lame. Somebody who has been doing judo all his life, now even in practice he isn't allowed to hit a morote gari because of a recent rule change?

I suppose you see BJJ guys sucking up to IBJJF ruleset in practice, so who is surprised that judo follows suit.

 

[Uchi Mata]

That's pretty lame. Somebody who has been doing judo all his life, now even in practice he isn't allowed to hit a morote gari because of a recent rule change?

I suppose you see BJJ guys sucking up to IBJJF ruleset in practice, so who is surprised that judo follows suit.

It's actually really hard for me to do Judo now, because I used leg grabs a lot (especially as counters) and while they weren't my highest scoring throws I set up a lot of stuff with them and used them to finish a fair amount of techniques. I especially miss ankle picks and te guruma. Duck under te guruma against a high collar grip was a favorit e of mine.

 

[QnA]

The problem is some fellow students are training for competitions, so when you use illegal or not-allowed moves they get angry. Generally it's only these two guys though.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I teach standup at my BJJ gym, so I just work all my gi-based leg attacks there with my students. High reps on a few techniques, since standup doesn't really need to be that sophisticated for BJJ tournaments, especially at the lower belt levels (a good single leg will take almost any white or blue belt down).

I'm thinking about joining the Denver wrestling club for the winter season starting in early October after Masters worlds is over. I think some freestyle would be fun, and very educational.

 

[shunyata]

It's actually really hard for me to do Judo now, because I used leg grabs a lot (especially as counters) and while they weren't my highest scoring throws I set up a lot of stuff with them and used them to finish a fair amount of techniques. I especially miss ankle picks and te guruma. Duck under te guruma against a high collar grip was a favorit e of mine.

I like to do leg locks with my judo. Seems silly that you have to train with mma guys to get pure free pre 1925 judo training in these days, but so be it.