Russian Wrestling/Judo Myths

[SFCFighter]

Freestyle wrestling rules are more similar to Judo rules then they are to Folkstyle rules, thus Russian/International wrestling has a lot of Judo-looking throws whereas folkstyle doesn't have as much.

Also, how it seems like most of these places have jacketed wrestling as the native style so I don't see how that couldn't have had some impact as well.

Why don't Japanese freestyle wrestlers throw at all? Americans throw much more than they do.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I keep seeing the idea pop up in threads, specifically no gi vs gi threads or folkstyle vs international wrestling threads, that wrestlers in Russia or ex Soviet countries cross-train freestyle or greco-roman wrestling with judo or sambo or traditional jacket styles..

It may be true there is some cross-pollination of techniques or concepts over time or that they are trained in the same facility, but from first hand accounts and from my eastern bloc friends, none of them have ever gone to a freestyle wrestling practice where some guys were wearing judogis or kurtkas and coaches mixed gi and gi-less techniques, the only thing i have ever heard of or witnessed is freestyle and greco guys training together, which is not done close to the 50/50 split at which some people do no gi and gi but only done a small percentage of the time and usually it is only freestyle guys working a little greco once in a while, not the other way around.

I am sure it is common place for judo and sambo guys to train together. Maybe the situation was different 60 years ago, but now Russian freestyle wrestlers are never putting on a gi.

If you showed up to a freestyle wrestling practice in Russia in a judo outfit (unless you are Vladimir Putin, who has done this very thing), you'd probably be yelled at to leave.

It is true that Judo and Sambo are viewed somewhat as forms of wrestling in Russia, as they are in many countries, but I think the idea of them being trained together in exotic Russia is a myth and used to propagate other erroneous myths like gi training being more 'technical' or better for nogi grappling than nogi training (given the same level of coaching/training partners) or that freestyle wrestling is 'better for MMA' than folkstyle wrestling because freestyle guys also crosstrain in judo/sambo.

I can direct you to gyms in Bulgaria and Japan, where wrestlers, judo guys and sambo guys train together and compete in all kinds of grappling, striking, MMA, combat sambo, sanda and etc.
SK Absolute in Japan, was a gym of wrestlers, who were also training sambo at night, together with judo guys.
You are generalizing things.
The way you state your argument, it sounds like someone have told you that EVERY wrestler in the eastern bloc is cross training in judo and sambo.
That is as wrong as is the statement, that NO ONE is doing that.
Let's just use Russia for example- it's a big country with plenty of small towns and just a handful of big cities. In order to get to a training facility, where your coach is good in all 3- wrestling, judo and sambo, you have to be looking at one of the state centers.
As pure statistics, that would be a very low percentage.
There are, though, sambo coaches, who are teaching judo. So, style wise, that would be a different style of judo by it self.
Age is another factor. What is the active age of a wrestler and of a judo and sambo guy.
And then, just need to look at some of the big names and realize that cross training does happen a lot.
Nurmagomedov started with wrestling. Then he became combat sambo world champ.
Fedor started with judo.
Karelin is known to have cross trained in sambo.
Bellator champ Minakov is Russia's freestyle wrestling junior champ, sambo world champ and was on the judo national team.
Bulgaria- Blagoi Ivanov and both Dimitrovs were originally judokas.
Ivaylo Ivanov is a judo guy who medals internationally in judo and sambo.
There is a guy I know, 9 times Bulgarian national freestyle champ, who also wrestled in US, during his college years. We were considering to go together to the sambo master worlds last week, but the whole team dropped out in the last moment.

 

[Gambledub]

Georgy Ketoev, an ethnic Georgian who wrestled for Russia

Has no choice but to train exclusively in the gi.

 

[FierceRedBelt]

Does that hairy dark Georgian guy have Lycanthropy or something? Are the people of the Caucasus just the closest we mankind can get to ape?

On a semi-serious note I'd assume that's just a recessive trait that's been allowed to strive in the relatively small breeding population of the Caucasus region. My grandfather, while not quite bad as that, is covered in curly hair and not a single one of his children or grandchildren has approached being as hairy as he is. Two of his grandsons have really thick hair on their legs/arms but none of them have the full coat and none of us have his strong beard either.

Being secluded to an island/mountain region population can bring out some really odd recessive characteristics in human's that would otherwise be lost in time.

 

[radman]

I use a whizzer kick throw all the time and I have trained in Judo. Uchi Mata and a whizzer kick throw feel different to me, but I can see how they are similar.

In American folkstyle we call a move a 'j-a-p (censored) whizzer'.. basically a type of arm spin throw

Ironically almost all Japanese freestyle wrestlers shoot low shots and wrestle from the open. They are not known as throwers at all, but as precision swing/sweep single and low single shooters.

I don't know enough about Japanese Greco wrestlers to comment if there is some Judo influence but I highly doubt it. Sumo is probably much more applicable to Greco than Judo is. Many Judo techniques would be illegal in Greco-Roman, also the grip and handfighting game which is so important to both is just so radically different, being able to push someone out of the circle like a Sumo wrestler would probably be far more helpful to a Greco wrestler than being able to perform uchi mata.

Being shorter and fast makes its more advantageous to Japanese wrestlers, they tend to stay away from clinching & its in the clinch you'll get your throws and pickups.

 

[radman]

I can direct you to gyms in Bulgaria and Japan, where wrestlers, judo guys and sambo guys train together and compete in all kinds of grappling, striking, MMA, combat sambo, sanda and etc.
SK Absolute in Japan, was a gym of wrestlers, who were also training sambo at night, together with judo guys.
You are generalizing things.
The way you state your argument, it sounds like someone have told you that EVERY wrestler in the eastern bloc is cross training in judo and sambo.
That is as wrong as is the statement, that NO ONE is doing that.
Let's just use Russia for example- it's a big country with plenty of small towns and just a handful of big cities. In order to get to a training facility, where your coach is good in all 3- wrestling, judo and sambo, you have to be looking at one of the state centers.
As pure statistics, that would be a very low percentage.
There are, though, sambo coaches, who are teaching judo. So, style wise, that would be a different style of judo by it self.
Age is another factor. What is the active age of a wrestler and of a judo and sambo guy.
And then, just need to look at some of the big names and realize that cross training does happen a lot.
Nurmagomedov started with wrestling. Then he became combat sambo world champ.
Fedor started with judo.
Karelin is known to have cross trained in sambo.
Bellator champ Minakov is Russia's freestyle wrestling junior champ, sambo world champ and was on the judo national team.
Bulgaria- Blagoi Ivanov and both Dimitrovs were originally judokas.
Ivaylo Ivanov is a judo guy who medals internationally in judo and sambo.
There is a guy I know, 9 times Bulgarian national freestyle champ, who also wrestled in US, during his college years. We were considering to go together to the sambo master worlds last week, but the whole team dropped out in the last moment.

Wow. These guys are the exceptions, in meaning exceptional athletes who never leave the training center.

like you have no time for anything else. But to be an Olympic champion, like Karelin, you focus on one thing.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Wow. These guys are the exceptions, in meaning exceptional athletes who never leave the training center.

like you have no time for anything else. But to be an Olympic champion, like Karelin, you focus on one thing.

From all of the names above, only Karelin was really a high level athlete, who specified in one style. And he still cross trained in sambo.
Nurmagomedov was never an Olympic hope in wrestling and so are the Bulgarian judokas I mentioned.
The level of competition back home is ridiculous. You might end up second or third at the national championships, but because the champs are busy with their daytime jobs or for other reasons, they decided not to compete, you go to represent the country on international level and become a world champ.
I think the wrestler I mentioned, have won only one European championship and never found time to compete seriously on the world stage. And he is absolute beast!

 

[outonbail]

Truth is

best sambo and judo guys are from Russia
best wrestling guys there are from kavkaz ( chechen, ingush, dagestan) but have to compete for russia
best BJJ guys are from chechnya, its retarded how fast it grows there with government funding, check abu dhabi pro results, they had good results from white to purple belt, and taking out some big names in brown belt, wait 2 years and they dominate up to brown belt also, sadly visa problems wont get these guys competing outside Asia or Middle East soon

they still dont like each other and never will, hence will probably never train together, unless if they can both make money out of it for mma.

 

[tap21]

lol this is what im talking about.. everywhere in the online judo and BJJ world people assume freestyle or Greco is pretty much nogi Judo or Sambo and that there is a ton of cross over and cross training... its pretty ignorant and annoying

Thank you for making this thread.

Hopefully now, we will no longer have to suffer these fantasies that all the ex-Soviet country wrestlers are secretly just judo/sambo guys who were forced to relinquish their jackets for a few hours while they stepped on the Olympic stage to easily vanquish the non-technical jacket-free wrestlers.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Truth is

best sambo and judo guys are from Russia
best wrestling guys there are from kavkaz ( chechen, ingush, dagestan) but have to compete for russia
best BJJ guys are from chechnya, its retarded how fast it grows there with government funding, check abu dhabi pro results, they had good results from white to purple belt, and taking out some big names in brown belt, wait 2 years and they dominate up to brown belt also, sadly visa problems wont get these guys competing outside Asia or Middle East soon

they still dont like each other and never will, hence will probably never train together, unless if they can both make money out of it for mma.

Wrong.
Best sambo guys are from Bulgaria.
Bulgaria takes second place in all time medals in sambo, but Bulgaria never went with full national teams in both, sport or combat sambo.
The sambo nationals in Bulgaria attract something like 70 people in total!
From those, we form not more than half a national team and half of those medal.
We have great number of repeating champions, especially in combat sambo.
Marko Kosev is on his way to win his 5th world title this year and beat the record, held by Fedor (4 world titles).
Bulgarian school of sambo is one of just a few, officially recognized worldwide by FIAS as something exceptional.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Thank you for making this thread.

Hopefully now, we will no longer have to suffer these fantasies that all the ex-Soviet country wrestlers are secretly just judo/sambo guys who were forced to relinquish their jackets for a few hours while they stepped on the Olympic stage to easily vanquish the non-technical jacket-free wrestlers.

But there are plenty wrestlers or judokas from the eastern bloc, who step on the sambo mat and win medals.

 

[Normot]

Why don't Japanese freestyle wrestlers throw at all? Americans throw much more than they do.

IDK why, whats your point?

 

[Normot]

That is a very strange conclusion. Folkstyle and Freestyle wrestling are far closer to each other than Judo. Like, FAR closer.

I don't find that to be the case. Have you ever done all three? Most of those big throws that score in Freestyle will score in Judo and not in Folkstyle. The ground work for both of them is turtling up and hoping the other guy doesn't do anything to you. There is a reason you see that mule-kick uchimata like throw in Freestyle way more than folkstyle. You know why? Because the rules are almost like Judo rules!

 

[Steve08]

Anyway, the Caucus is a pretty amazing place for wrestlers. All of it, but in particular Dagestan. Khasavyurt has a population of like 125k, and since 2000 have won more world level championships than the entire United States.

Holy fuck man.

I gotta wrestle with some Ingushetians, Ossetians, Dagestanis, etc some day...

 

[Normot]

If your georgian you might not crosstrain but if this has been going on around you for the past thousand years, I am willing to be the Georgian Olympic team has all given a go at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rWzF62rsMA

 

[SFCFighter]

I can direct you to gyms in Bulgaria and Japan, where wrestlers, judo guys and sambo guys train together and compete in all kinds of grappling, striking, MMA, combat sambo, sanda and etc.
SK Absolute in Japan, was a gym of wrestlers, who were also training sambo at night, together with judo guys.
You are generalizing things.
The way you state your argument, it sounds like someone have told you that EVERY wrestler in the eastern bloc is cross training in judo and sambo.
That is as wrong as is the statement, that NO ONE is doing that.
Let's just use Russia for example- it's a big country with plenty of small towns and just a handful of big cities. In order to get to a training facility, where your coach is good in all 3- wrestling, judo and sambo, you have to be looking at one of the state centers.
As pure statistics, that would be a very low percentage.
There are, though, sambo coaches, who are teaching judo. So, style wise, that would be a different style of judo by it self.
Age is another factor. What is the active age of a wrestler and of a judo and sambo guy.
And then, just need to look at some of the big names and realize that cross training does happen a lot.
Nurmagomedov started with wrestling. Then he became combat sambo world champ.
Fedor started with judo.
Karelin is known to have cross trained in sambo.
Bellator champ Minakov is Russia's freestyle wrestling junior champ, sambo world champ and was on the judo national team.
Bulgaria- Blagoi Ivanov and both Dimitrovs were originally judokas.
Ivaylo Ivanov is a judo guy who medals internationally in judo and sambo.
There is a guy I know, 9 times Bulgarian national freestyle champ, who also wrestled in US, during his college years. We were considering to go together to the sambo master worlds last week, but the whole team dropped out in the last moment.

Nurmagomedov's father is actually a judoka/sambist and wanted Khabib to pursue Judo. Both Khabib and his father did have some exposure to wrestling but they were not close to being on a national team or something like that. Almost every boy in Dagestan has exposure to freestyle wrestling, it is the most popular sport there by far. Soccer is probably next with Judo coming somewhere after that.

As far as Karelin, he is atypical for a Russian wrestler, being an ethnic slav from Siberia and not someone from the Caucasus or Kavkaz as they call it. He is also a physical freak and a super heavyweight. He could compete in Sambo or Judo and probably wreck people with no training. I still have never seen any actual proof that he trained in Sambo, it appears to be a myth. If he trained in Sambo it sure doesn't show in his awkward worked match in RINGS where he looked like a Greco wrestler and a fish out of water.

Fedor isn't a wrestler, I don't see your point. I am not discussing the links between Judo and Sambo. That link in the eastern bloc is incredibly strong and there is a ton of influence and cross training.

As far as Minakov being a junior national champion of Russia, I kind of doubt this though it is possible seeing he is a super heavyweight. Why would he switch to Judo/Sambo and then MMA if he was that good? Being a junior national champion of Russia means you are an elite world class wrestler and have a good shot at winning an Olympic or Worlds medal. You would be paid handsomely and be given a very good stipend for being that level of wrestler, it would make no sense to go into MMA.

Another cultural issue is that men in Russia tend to brag a lot and some tend to fabricate their credentials. I never understood this, even complete bad asses I have met there have a tendency to exaggerate their credentials when their true credentials are already very good. Maybe someone who grew up there can explain this phenomenon to me.

Ivanov another sambist. Who is the guy you know who wrestled in college in the US who was a Bulgarian freestyle champion? He must have been extremely good, the only Bulgarians I know to achieve success in NCAA wrestling were the Navochkov brothers but they are still young.

Either way, you clearly come from a judo/sambo background. I come from a wrestling background and have lived with and trained with people from the Russian Caucasus who were freestyle wrestlers. I never saw any cross training and the idea of cross training with judo was absurd to them. They didn't even have much interest in Greco-Roman wrestling which was trained either before or after the freestyle practices.

IDK why, whats your point?

lol are you serious, dude? you say that judo and freestyle are more similar to each other than freestyle and folkstyle wrestling and you claim judo and sambo has a strong influence on freestyle wrestling and I ask you why the country that INVENTED Judo, that has it in their school curriculum, meaning every child is exposed to JUDO, has apparently ZERO judo influence on their freestyle wrestling techniques..

maybe it's possible that Russian freestyle wrestlers throw a lot because that is their style of wrestling and it has nothing at all to do with the fact that Judo and Sambo are also popular there.. they certainly don't teach Judo or Sambo to every child in Russia, I think you are mistaken about the popularity of the sport over there.

let me guess, you are a judoka and have never wrestled competitively?

 

[Normot]

lol are you serious, dude? you say that judo and freestyle are more similar to each other than freestyle and folkstyle wrestling and you claim judo and sambo has a strong influence on freestyle wrestling and I ask you why the country that INVENTED Judo, that has it in their school curriculum, meaning every child is exposed to JUDO, has apparently ZERO judo influence on their freestyle wrestling techniques..

maybe it's possible that Russian freestyle wrestlers throw a lot because that is their style of wrestling and it has nothing at all to do with the fact that Judo and Sambo are also popular there.. they certainly don't teach Judo or Sambo to every child in Russia, I think you are mistaken about the popularity of the sport over there.

let me guess, you are a judoka and have never wrestled competitively?

I never claimed that Judo or Sambo has any influence on Freestyle wrestling. What the fuck are you talking about? And I wrestled in HS and college thank you very much. I also don't think that every child is exposed to Judo, I have met Japanese kids who think Judo is Karate...

I claim that Judo is more like Freestyle than Folkstyle is because I have competed in each and developed my own opinions...

 

[SFCFighter]

I don't find that to be the case. Have you ever done all three? Most of those big throws that score in Freestyle will score in Judo and not in Folkstyle. The ground work for both of them is turtling up and hoping the other guy doesn't do anything to you. There is a reason you see that mule-kick uchimata like throw in Freestyle way more than folkstyle. You know why? Because the rules are almost like Judo rules!

I have competed in folkstyle, freestyle, and judo. Folkstyle and freestyle definitely feel more similar than freestyle and judo. Judo was very stop/start and had weird 'feeling' rules for a wrestler, lots of partial takedown stuff and stops in the action.

Freestyles rules do have some similarities to Judo, there are more points awarded for throws which encourage more throwing than folkstyle wrestling, which is why you see a lot more throws in Freestyle, but the majority of attacks are still simple leg attacks or go behinds which you never see in Judo. There is a similarity for par terre or mat wrestling in that you both try to stay flat to the ground, but Judo is about submitting your opponent or immobilizing them (what they call a pin). Freestyle wrestling is about turning your opponent or getting a wrestling pin (which is much quicker and different than a judo pin). The other rule which you probably aren't aware of that felt somewhat like a judo rule is the slip throw rule in freestyle. You can attempt a throw and if you land on your stomach you get restarted.

 

[SFCFighter]

I never claimed that Judo or Sambo has any influence on Freestyle wrestling. What the fuck are you talking about? And I wrestled in HS and college thank you very much. I also don't think that every child is exposed to Judo, I have met Japanese kids who think Judo is Karate...

I claim that Judo is more like Freestyle than Folkstyle is because I have competed in each and developed my own opinions...

Judo is offered at nearly every junior high school and high school and is now compulsory for students in Japan.

What level did you wrestle at in college? What were your go to techniques?

This entire thread is about the idea that Judo/Sambo has an influence on wrestling in the 'eastern bloc'.

 

[Normot]

Judo is offered at nearly every junior high school and high school and is now compulsory for students in Japan.

What level did you wrestle at in college? What were your go to techniques?

This entire thread is about the idea that Judo/Sambo has an influence on wrestling in the 'eastern bloc'.

DIII, high crotch and outside singles. I know what this thread is about, I offered a post saying why the eastern bloc guys have big throws that mostly agrees with you and you get all crotchety.