Rose Namajunas vs. Michelle Waterson Set For UFC Fight Night Kansas City (Poll)

[Hardkore]

Not sure if this fight makes sense

@Arkridge @TheRuthlessOne Who do like in this one? I think KH choking her out

 

[AlAllen]

I got Rose by late submission, or decision.

 

[fortheo]

Part of it is mental, part of it is the lack of a "tight" game. What I mean by that is she can do all the moves (throw good punches, kicks, decent footwork, etc) but it's not put together into an overall cohesive style. She could be eating up an opponent with a good 1-2 and then she'll start throwing sidekicks or some other shit that doesn't make sense instead of just keeping on doing what's working. She seems to have a use the fundamentals mode and a wild crazy shit mode, and there's times when she looks a bit lost and unsure of what to do. She's not like Joanna or GSP where everything has a setup and they constantly chip away and work towards their goal, Rose is kinda all over the place, she doesn't really have a system.

The fun part is, Waterson is a lot like that as well, nice technique, but much like Rose it's not a tight system. It's not like GSP or Joanna where they start by working you over with a jab and then adding in other stuff as the holes open up in the defence, and then continuing to systematically exploit openings until the opponent is finished or hopelessly behind on the cards. Valentina's another one with a tight game, she has certain moves that she opens with to draw reactions, then she starts countering those reactions to put the opponent behind on points. Rose and Michelle don't really do that, they're more like Condit who goes with the flow and keeps on throwing different shit until something works.

Going back to the mental part, Rose gets sucked into her opponent's game too easily. Against Torres, she was piecing up Tecia with long punches but once Tecia got a couple good shots on her, she started brawling, clinching, and wrestling instead of just resetting back to the outside and continuing to pick her apart. The fight ended up being a very close decision instead of an easy decision win. Similar thing happened against Karolina, once Karolina got some good shots in from the clinch, Rose got sucked off her outside striking and even initiated some of the clinches when she should've been avoiding them at all cost. It seems like she can't she can't accept her opponent is better at something, and she has to go there and try to prove that she's better.

I don't disagree that part of it is mental, but part of it is technical and that is rarely touched on; and it's more than just a lack of flow or intent in her game. Rose's close range boxing, her clinch, and her wrestling all need work. Those are all technical aspects of the game that have caused her to lose at least once, yet they are rarely acknowledged, instead people take the easy way out and chalk the lack of rose's success up to her mental weaknesses.

 

[welcometohavoc]

Not sure if this fight makes sense

It's because the division is a joke, much like Flyweight right now.

 

[KazDibiase]

Is it me or Michelle put on some muscle?

 

[aerius]

I don't disagree that part of it is mental, but part of it is technical and that is rarely touched on; and it's more than just a lack of flow or intent in her game. Rose's close range boxing, her clinch, and her wrestling all need work. Those are all technical aspects of the game that have caused her to lose at least once, yet they are rarely acknowledged, instead people take the easy way out and chalk the lack of rose's success up to her mental weaknesses.

Rose has weaknesses and areas that need work, but if she can take care of the clinch and improve her wrestling a bit I'm not too concerned about the rest, she has other skills which prevent opponents from banging it out in the pocket with her. GSP for instance had zero close range boxing yet he still put together a system that made him the best WW of all time. IMO having a good tight game is more important than mastering every trick in the book, having a process/system means you can avoid your weaknesses for the most part while systematically picking at the opponent and breaking them down.

You can be good everywhere, but if you don't have a system you can't make efficient and effective use of your skills. Case in point, Grasso. Best hands in the division other than Joanna, defensive wrestling skills are solid, scrambles well on the ground, and overall one of the most skilled and technically sound fighters in the division. But she doesn't really have a process, she tends to let the flow of the fight take her wherever it goes, she doesn't actively create opportunities where she can use her heavy hands to combo up and flurry on her opponents. If Grasso didn't wait till the last 30 seconds of the fight to pressure Herrig towards the fence and unload punches on her, she could've gotten Herrig out of there in the 1st round instead of losing a decision.

 

[Whippy McGee]

I think it is going to be a great fight.

The loser should have to shave her head.

 

[fortheo]

Rose has weaknesses and areas that need work, but if she can take care of the clinch and improve her wrestling a bit I'm not too concerned about the rest, she has other skills which prevent opponents from banging it out in the pocket with her. GSP for instance had zero close range boxing yet he still put together a system that made him the best WW of all time. IMO having a good tight game is more important than mastering every trick in the book, having a process/system means you can avoid your weaknesses for the most part while systematically picking at the opponent and breaking them down.

You can be good everywhere, but if you don't have a system you can't make efficient and effective use of your skills. Case in point, Grasso. Best hands in the division other than Joanna, defensive wrestling skills are solid, scrambles well on the ground, and overall one of the most skilled and technically sound fighters in the division. But she doesn't really have a process, she tends to let the flow of the fight take her wherever it goes, she doesn't actively create opportunities where she can use her heavy hands to combo up and flurry on her opponents. If Grasso didn't wait till the last 30 seconds of the fight to pressure Herrig towards the fence and unload punches on her, she could've gotten Herrig out of there in the 1st round instead of losing a decision.

You're not really disagreeing with me. I simply wanted to highlight a problem that I feel was overlooked: that Rose has technical deficiencies and not everything can be blamed on her mental game. I'd even go a step further and say that her technical deficiencies are what leads to her mental problems. We've seen it multiple times, For instance, Carla took advantage of one of Rose's weaknesses by out wrestling her, and karolina took advantage of one of Rose's weaknesses by out pacing her in the close range striking and in the clinch game. What I'm trying to say is that it's Rose's lack of skill in certain areas that leads to her mental problems, not vice versa. I just wanted to make that clear because people often cite her mental weakness as the key factor.

The difference between what you're suggesting is simply a difference in approach to solving this problem, but at least it seems that we both agree that it is a problem, which is what I was trying to highlight. Whether it's evolving her "tight game" as you say it in order to make everything function around her skill-set, or if it's improving her all around game as I said—they're both technical improvements to be made and they both address the same problem of technical deficiency in certain areas of her game, which again is a problem that a lot of people never address with rose, instead they blame it all on Mental weakness. It's two sides of the same coin, but it seems like the majority only look at one side, which is all I wanted to point out.


Hopefully I expressed that decently. I just spent a few hours reading some french and now my English constructions feel odd.

 

[SeverianB]

Is it me or Michelle put on some muscle?

Michelle said she has put on a little over 5lbs of muscle in the 2 years since she moved up to 115.

A Bro on Reddit assured me she could not have done this without steroids.

I think it is going to be a great fight.

The loser should have to shave her head.

But Rose is already.....

 

[aerius]

The difference between what you're suggesting is simply a difference in approach to solving this problem, but at least it seems that we both agree that it is a problem, which is what I was trying to highlight. Whether it's evolving her "tight game" as you say it in order to make everything function around her skill-set, or if it's improving her all around game as I said—they're both technical improvements to be made and they both address the same problem of technical deficiency in certain areas of her game, which again is a problem that a lot of people never address with rose, instead they blame it all on Mental weakness. It's two sides of the same coin, but it seems like the majority only look at one side, which is all I wanted to point out.

I think we're mostly in agreement. Other than Demetrious Johnson and Fedor in his Pride days, I have a hard time thinking of any fighter who is strong everywhere and has no real weaknesses in any area. Even great fighters like Jon Jones, GSP, and Cruz aren't as complete as DJ, and they need and have ways of working around the weaknesses in their skills. It is of course worse on the women's side where I don't think anyone's truly complete like DJ, and the holes in their skillsets are generally larger than on the men's side. Those skill gaps will eventually close but that's going to take another generation or 2 of fighters, maybe more, which is why I think building a system and having a tight game is more important in the here & now.

 

[fortheo]

I think we're mostly in agreement. Other than Demetrious Johnson and Fedor in his Pride days, I have a hard time thinking of any fighter who is strong everywhere and has no real weaknesses in any area. Even great fighters like Jon Jones, GSP, and Cruz aren't as complete as DJ, and they need and have ways of working around the weaknesses in their skills. It is of course worse on the women's side where I don't think anyone's truly complete like DJ, and the holes in their skillsets are generally larger than on the men's side. Those skill gaps will eventually close but that's going to take another generation or 2 of fighters, maybe more, which is why I think building a system and having a tight game is more important in the here & now.

Yeah. I actually agree that your solution is better. I didn't really think much about solving her issues—I just wanted to bring it to peoples attention that the technical issues are in fact there. I'm thinking that with good coaching and more experience Rose will be able to build her game around her strengths better than she currently does.

 

[Tonfa]

I dont really see not being able to out wrestle Carla Esparza as a "weakness". Her clinch fighting IS a weakness. It is the weakness Michelle will exploit in the stand up if she is smart. Michelle cant rely on kicks to keep Rose back all night and she cant outbox Rose.

But yeah, there is something that is self sabotaging about Rose.

 

[Tonfa]

@Arkridge @TheRuthlessOne Who do like in this one? I think KH choking her out

Rose is not only vulnerable to clinch fighting but she also seems to have a soft core that cant take too many knees. She needs ab work. What Michelle has to do is keep Rose on the end of her kicks, and when Rose tries to penetrate to use her boxing, tie her up in the clinch and slam knees and elbows. If she puts in real work with the knees it is going to seriously drain Rose. If Rose tries to take Michelle down just to escape the clinchfighting without caring about how she does it, she may become a victim to Michelles very fast and crafty scrambling skills (taking Rose' back for the choke)..

Now if Michelle just tries to fight a kickboxing match with Rose she is going to have a baad night.

 

[Better Every Day]

 

[Better Every Day]

 

[Tonfa]

Rose is not only vulnerable to clinch fighting but she also seems to have a soft core that cant take too many knees. She needs ab work. What Michelle has to do is keep Rose on the end of her kicks, and when Rose tries to penetrate to use her boxing, tie her up in the clinch and slam knees and elbows. If she puts in real work with the knees it is going to seriously drain Rose. If Rose tries to take Michelle down just to escape the clinchfighting without caring about how she does it, she may become a victim to Michelles very fast and crafty scrambling skills (taking Rose' back for the choke)..

Now if Michelle just tries to fight a kickboxing match with Rose she is going to have a baad night.

lol Well i got that last line right.

 

[phunky]

Too many weirdos with wrong predictions LOLED

 

[Tonfa]

Too many weirdos with wrong predictions LOLED

Well my purely analytical predictions were correct. Michelle gets starched if its a kickboxing match. It was my pick that was wrong. I thought Michelle would be smart enough to make it a clinch fight given Rose's obvious weakness there.

 

[aerius]

Thoughts. This is the 3rd high profile Jackson-Wink fighter who made mistakes defending the rear naked choke. Instead of keeping her hands free to defend the neck when Rose did the back take, Waterson went to scoop up Rose's leg with her right arm, and got her arm trapped so she had only one hand to defend the choke. You just don't do a standup without having both hands free to protect the neck, Whittaker showed the right way to do a standup when Jacare got his back.

Rose walked into way too many of Waterson's side kicks to the leg. Yeah it doesn't do much if any damage since Rose had a proper stance to take them, but the kicks did their job of stopping Rose in her tracks to keep her out of punching range for the most part. Problem was Waterson got way too predictable with them, she only went high a couple times and didn't kick to the body at all, throw some side kicks to the body to make Rose drop her hands, then go high.

Clinching with Rose isn't as easy & safe as it was before, she's learned a few things from training with Shevchenko. She now knows how to frame out, change grips, and land strikes on the break. A rematch with Karolina isn't going to end the same way.

 

[SPB]

Waterson is a pretty lady and seems like a very nice person. Time for her to pack it in, unless the UFC opens an AtomWT Div. She (and Carla too) is too small for the 115ers.

She's going to take too much damage if she keeps this up.