Crime River Visitor Found Guilty of reckless homicide After Drunk Teenagers Harassed Him

[MichiganMMA1978]

What do you mean they never do? Are you under the impressions these kids were going to kill the old man right there and then? Me and my cousins have been jumped multiple times at clubs and bars and they always stop. It doesn't even really hurt if you just turtle up. Some of you need to get out of the house and off the internet. I feel like you guys things it's Mad Max out there in the city.

Sounds like you and your cousin need to train teh UFC

Turtling up is about the last thing I'd do. I'd fucking bite and gouge eyes first.
And yes, I've been jumped multiple times.

 

[nhbbear]

No, not necessarily.

The way my kids and others use it is like a hype thing. We are trying to get hyped, but know it’s dumb too. Purposefully showing your ass. That’s the best way I can really explain how I’ve heard it used. Trying to start shit knowing it’s dumb. Though it originally had a different use so it’s probably used differently in some places still.

I have heard it used as “I know it’s wrong or against character, but I am going to do this thing”

 

[nhbbear]

If I recall right he hit the kid in the heart so his guts wouldn’t have been falling out. Maybe that’s the kid he injured.

Doesn’t matter anyways. When he killed the kid it was after they let him up and they were all telling him to leave but he was standing their defiantly- probably feeling confident after he planned to pull his knife

And yet they shoved and hit him again. HE DOESNT HAVE TO LEAVE OR WALK AWAY SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY SAY SO. They have no authority and were tossing that shit around because they outnumbered and thought they outgunned him. When he refused, they started getting physical again. And I don’t care if he made physical contact when he grabbed the tube. That was several minutes prior and they don’t get to have a delayed response that involves five on one.

 

[Blayt7hh]

And yet they shoved and hit him again. HE DOESNT HAVE TO LEAVE OR WALK AWAY SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY SAY SO. They have no authority and were tossing that shit around because they outnumbered and thought they outgunned him. When he refused, they started getting physical again. And I don’t care if he made physical contact when he grabbed the tube. That was several minutes prior and they don’t get to have a delayed response that involves five on one.

Self defense is not a defense when you assault people first. Self defense is not a defense when you continue to escalate an antagonize which he did. He created the situation.

You’re right that they don’t get to assault him, because it’s assault and they should have been charge with assault. That doesn’t mean murdering one of them became an acceptable response.

These are simple and obvious truths.

Luckily the courts got it right.

 

[nhbbear]

Self defense is not a defense when you assault people first. Self defense is not a defense when you continue to escalate an antagonize which he did. He created the situation.

You’re right that they don’t get to assault him, because it’s assault and they should have been charge with assault. That doesn’t mean murdering one of them became an acceptable response.

These are simple and obvious truths.

Luckily the courts got it right.

Not an accurate statement.

Who did he assault first? Are we still talking about the grabbing the tube looking for the phone? That was minutes before. And that does not count as assault or battery. Battery is defined as making contact with the intent to cause injury. Assault is making threats or actions that would make a reasonable person fear they were about to receive bodily injury.

If we are talking about him allegedly hitting or shoving the female, the level of force is not proportional to what they did to him and he did not “continue to escalate and antagonize them.” They were antagonizing him by calling him a pedo and messing with him. They called him pedo so much that other people got involved and got in his face, placing him in danger or fearing for his safety.

Everything is about proportion. If I shove someone and they pull out a baseball bat, which leads me to pull out a gun and shoot them-it doesn’t mean that I can’t claim self defense because I pushed him first. If I knock someone down and continue to shove them down and continue to hit them while they are down-and they pull out a knife or gun, I am putting them at risk of receiving serious bodily injury or fear of such, which would make it justified. Now multiply that by five-the number of different people that shoved, hit, or kicked him. All while this man has a bad heart.

The courts got this wrong. He don’t HAVE to prove self defense. The state had to prove this wasn’t self defense, which I believe they failed at. The fact that it is an ongoing and close debate should tell you this “is not beyond a reasonable doubt.” Juries get things wrong often enough that it is not unreasonable to suggest they did so here.

 

[Poon Goon]

If I shove someone and they pull out a baseball bat, which leads me to pull out a gun and shoot them-it doesn’t mean that I can’t claim self defense because I pushed him first.

So if someone shoves me I am legally required to engage in fisticuffs as my only means of self defense? This scenario doesn't make sense. You start shit by shoving me, I grab a bat to defend myself against you being a dick, but then you shoot me to death and that's justified?

 

[nhbbear]

So if someone shoves me I am legally required to engage in fisticuffs as my only means of self defense? This scenario doesn't make sense. You start shit by shoving me, I grab a bat to defend myself against you being a dick, but then you shoot me to death and that's justified?

It would matter on the reason for the shove. He was saying that it’s impossible to make first contact and then claim self defense and that is not accurate. Maybe I shove someone because they threatened me and got in my face.

 

[Poon Goon]

It would matter on the reason for the shove. He was saying that it’s impossible to make first contact and then claim self defense and that is not accurate. Maybe I shove someone because they threatened me and got in my face.

Well in this case it appears that the oldster is the one who approached the group and initiated contact with them. I get that you are saying that this was minutes prior, but is there a set timeframe for when someone stops being viewed as a threat?

 

[lifelessheap]

Many do not know this phrase. It’s clear intent to what they wished to do. Guy is fucked, and that is that, but it’s still a shame. Glad my kids don’t act like this.

Then they lied about what that phrase meant when asked in court. Disgusting.

 

[Lucas1980]

Sounds like you and your cousin need to train teh UFC

Turtling up is about the last thing I'd do. I'd fucking bite and gouge eyes first.
And yes, I've been jumped multiple times.

I'd say the majority of these limp noodles saying it wasn't Self Defense have never been in a situation where there getting attacked and harassed by multiple people...Arm Chair Qbs indeed

 

[nhbbear]

Well in this case it appears that the oldster is the one who approached the group and initiated contact with them. I get that you are saying that this was minutes prior, but is there a set timeframe for when someone stops being viewed as a threat?

Obviously, I look at many factors. One being the number of attackers. Age and wellness of combatants. Weapons evident. Terrain or conditions. Special considerations. Mind frame of each party.

In this case, it’s one vs many. Elderly vs young. Young and fit vs old and infirm. No weapons evident. Terrain is water-inherently dangerous. Special considerations-heart issues. Mind frame-young, brash, confident, and arrogant against either stoic/aloof or scared.

It’s some of the same factors that police are judged by when using force. Some of the same lines of thought-the totality of the circumstances.

When you look at the totality of the circumstances, we have an elderly man vs many younger men and women. We have overly cocky vs quiet(never even said a word), we have watery terrain, which is dangerous because if you are held down or knocked out-you drown. You have a man with a heart condition vs many young and healthy young men. We have aggression vs timid.

As for the time frame, if the attacks had come immediately after him trying to grab the tube or the person, I would be more forgiving. Those kids were laughing, cocky, and antagonizing the man. Then the other group came up and it escalated. I don’t know what happened in the few seconds the camera was not on him, but they appear to be the most important. IF he hit, shoved, or knocked her phone away-I still consider hitting and kicking him while down, shoving him repeatedly into the water-to be excessive for the threat he posed(minus the knife, which no one knew about). IF he slapped that woman, the threat is over. She was completely uninjured and had no marks and there are serious questions as to whether it even happened or whether it was a strike or push when she got in his face, which she did. None of the youth appeared scared. Not one bit. An element of self defense has to be the fear of being seriously Injured or killed. None of them had that fear-it seemed to be anger and any excuse to attack him mercilessly. He, however, could easily make the argument that he was scared for his life. Elderly with heart condition, facing superior numbers and aggressive youth, in the water which is a heightened risk.

And again, on the time factor-he only attacked with the knife as he was ACTIVELY being attacked and only attacked those that were trying to attack him. If he went on a rampage and attacked bystanders, it would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. But he stabbed each boy as they came in to hit or shove him again and again and they all laughed until the first kid was bleeding out. They didn’t even realize what had happened because they attacked him one after the other (five of them) and each time, that one was stabbed.

I will never know how the jury found him guilty just like I will never understand how Casey Anthony’s jury found her not guilty. I simply don’t see how reasonable doubt didn’t cost this case. Maybe because it is tragic because of their youth? Knife vs fists without considering the numbers/youth/water/heart factors-and if his lawyers did not stress that-shame on them! The boys were caught lying multiple times-as was he, which is what I think did him in. I don’t like the dude. His actions were shady af, but didn’t negate the fact that he was potentially fighting for his life.

 

[nhbbear]

Then they lied about what that phrase meant when asked in court. Disgusting.

They lied about a lot of things including seeing the punch and hearing him say he was looking for little girls-which they admitted in court that he never said a word to them, which one kid said “if he had said a word or two, it would have cleared some things up.”

 

[nhbbear]

I'd say the majority of these limp noodles saying it wasn't Self Defense have never been in a situation where there getting attacked and harassed by multiple people...Arm Chair Qbs indeed

They have never seen how quickly things can get really bad when you have an unarmed, elderly person facing many attackers. I have seen several cases where one punch was lethal. These kids were ultra soft, but that didn’t mean they weren’t a threat to an old man with a heart condition. And “old” is in reference to them. This guy isn’t that much older than me.

 

[Poon Goon]

When you look at the totality of the circumstances, we have an elderly man vs many younger men and women.

Guy was 54 when he was convicted so he was 52 at the time of the incident. He wasn't elderly and you saying he was shows your bias.

We have overly cocky vs quiet(never even said a word)

Didn't know being "cocky" made someone more or less dangerous than a quiet person.

we have watery terrain, which is dangerous because if you are held down or knocked out-you drown.

Guy knew he was in water when he approached the group and got physical with them.

You have a man with a heart condition vs many young and healthy young men. We have aggression vs timid.

The guy initiated the physical contact knowing he had a heart condition. How was the young group supposed to know? How is him initiating physical contact considered being "timid"?

Ultimately both sides were acting like shitheads, but this guy decided to start stabbing everyone. He was convicted of reckless homicide instead of premeditated homicide. We will see what the judge thinks in a couple of months when he gets sentenced.

 

[nhbbear]

Guy was 54 when he was convicted so he was 52 at the time of the incident. He wasn't elderly and you saying he was shows your bias.


Didn't know being "cocky" made someone more or less dangerous than a quiet person.


Guy knew he was in water when he approached the group and got physical with them.


The guy initiated the physical contact knowing he had a heart condition. How was the young group supposed to know? How is him initiating physical contact considered being "timid"?

Ultimately both sides were acting like shitheads, but this guy decided to start stabbing everyone. He was convicted of reckless homicide instead of premeditated homicide. We will see what the judge thinks in a couple of months when he gets sentenced.

Bias? lol. Did you really just say that? How woke of you. I said in another post that he is not that much older at the time of the incident than I am now(almost 47). I also stated that while not “elderly,” compared to them, he is. And age, being just a number, his weaker condition is a major factor in this and how much force he can use to protect himself. A much larger and younger man would not be able to get away with using very much force and a female would be able to get away with a higher level of force. This also has a factor on when you can use higher force. A younger and stronger man would not be able to use a high level of force right off the bat. A small female or an older(there, you happy) weaker male can start the level of force much higher than someone more capable of defending themselves.

Yes, more cocky runs right along with more aggressive which more often than not, means more dangerous.

And lol at you guys claiming that this guy grabbing the tube is aggression or becoming physical. Comparing What he did by grabbing the tube vs what they did to him pre stabbing is laughable. And they don’t have to know about his heart condition. He does. That’s what matters is that his heart condition is in his mind and heightens his threat level. He knows his heart could go at any time during the beat down. His behavior throughout is certainly odd but at no point was anyone afraid of him as evidenced by the laughing, teasing, getting in his face, etc.

He was looking for a phone when these kids started teasing him calling him a pedo. He was minding his own business walking in the river looking for a phone. He only grabbed the tube because he thought they had the phone. He grabbed the tube and then dropped his goggles and let go. They laughed the entire time, so he put them in absolutely no fear and they kept fucking with him.

He stood there while they teased, berated, got in his face. He smiled and looked incredibly embarrassed like he didn’t know what to say or do as he was surrounded by over a dozen people yelling at him, cheering, calling him names, getting in his face, etc. Compared to their hyena like presence, yes, he was what I would describe as timid, scared, or aloof. Those were the words I used.

And if he had been arguing back and forth with them, I would attribute more of this to anger than fear. It saying he wasn’t angry when he went all stabby, but the argument for fear of serious bodily harm, justifying self defense, is much stronger with his behavior compared to someone arguing and standing up for themselves.

Bottom line is that he didn’t get stabby until he was knocked down and struck in the face while down. Then he gets up and is shoved down again. I can’t pick out when he pulls his knife or when he stabs people. I have tried but it’s simply not that evident when it happens. Personally, I think the argument for self defense to the point of injecting reasonable doubt, is easy. The jury verdict was based on emotion and a feeling of responsibility to do something because they feared doing nothing. The original charge of premeditated murder is a fucking joke. You don’t have to pre-plan the event from home for it to be premeditated-the amount of time differs depending on what expert you ask, but most agree that there must be enough time to be able to formulate a plan. Clearly, this guy wouldn’t have been able to formulate a plan to stab his attackers in between shoves. I could see a second degree (,crime of passion) charge if you were wanting to really go after him(which clearly they were), but I don’t see where they could go above manslaughter.

And keep in mind, I am not saying his actions were the correct or only thing to do. I have maintained that his actions were in self defense. Were they absolutely necessary to prevent his death? Probably not. We will never know because he defended himself. I don’t think he would have been able to defend himself using conventional fists because he was so outnumbered and much weaker. I honestly think that if he had tried to hit back, he would have really been jumped with more effort and not just braggadocio or for fun.

Despite what ridiculous assertions made by others itt-such as he should have just accepted his beating with the understanding that they never meant him serious harm or that he HAD to walk away because they were telling him to. They were free to leave as well and they chose to hang up on him and severely beat him.

Bottom line is that these kids are/were total punks looking to pick on someone weaker to make themselves feel superior. The way he lied to police tells me he is a turd or was really afraid of getting in the kind of trouble he is in. Not sure what he thought would happen if the police let him go for that evening-maybe flee back to country of origin or he simply had no idea what to do next because the horror of what he had done had sank in-he heard someone died?

 

[Poon Goon]

Bias? lol. Did you really just say that? How woke of you.

Yes I said bias because why else would you make up shit like a 52 year old guy being "elderly"? It's just not true so obviously you have some reason to embellish things to make this guy seem innocent.

Yes, more cocky runs right along with more aggressive which more often than not, means more dangerous.

Yet this very case shows that the "quiet" guy was actually more dangerous.

And lol at you guys claiming that this guy grabbing the tube is aggression or becoming physical.

He wasn't grabbing the guy/tube out of love or jokes. It was an aggressive and physical act. Which means he's the one that started the physical confrontation.

Bottom line is that these kids are/were total punks looking to pick on someone weaker to make themselves feel superior.

I agree that they were shitheads, but so was this guy and he took things to the most extreme level. I don't feel sorry that he's going to jail.

 

[Osculater]

So if someone shoves me I am legally required to engage in fisticuffs as my only means of self defense? This scenario doesn't make sense. You start shit by shoving me, I grab a bat to defend myself against you being a dick, but then you shoot me to death and that's justified?

He should know that he's an ex-cop

 

[Belaya Smert]

And nothing of value was lost that day.

Except the phone.

You can put rice in a ziploc in the fridge
Life hack/murder hack it’s all relative

 

[Poon Goon]

One night as a young rascal I was eating at Denny's at 2am with a group of friends. We were drunk so of course we were being loud. A skinny old biker guy was sitting with his legs up in a booth nearby and he said something. I don't recall my exact response, but I didn't threaten him.

Either way he didn't like it and he flipped over a leg on his chaps to show me he had a knife. I laughed, but luckily a Denny's employee kicked everyone out and I didn't get stabbed in the parking lot. There but for the grace of God go I.

 

[Hog-train]

He wasn't grabbing the guy/tube out of love or jokes. It was an aggressive and physical act. Which means he's the one that started the physical confrontation.

That's irrelevant because by the time the attacks started, that was long over and he was not being threatening then.