D
Remember when "they hate us for our freedom" was mocked?
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Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”
Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”
Quran (4:89) – “They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”
“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” Quran 8:12
“Let not the unbelievers think they will ever get away. They have not the power so to do. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of Allah and your enemy…” Quran 8:59-60
“Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.” Quran 9:73
“Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” Quran 9:123
“Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another…” Quran 5:51
“Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does this has nothing to hope for from Good – except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return.” Quran 3:28
“Muhammad is God’s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another.” Quran 48:29
Yeah, Islam disagrees with you.
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Lets put it into context
3:55 [Mention] when God said, “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to God alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.
3:56 And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers.”
3:57 But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and God does not like the wrongdoers.
Sounds quite like bible. Dont believe in Jesus and you go to hell. What else is new?
Lets put into context
4:74 So let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. And he who fights in the cause of Allah and is killed or achieves victory – We will bestow upon him a great reward.
4:75 And what is [the matter] with you that you fight not in the cause of God and [for] the oppressed among men, women, and children who say, “Our Lord, take us out of this city of oppressive people and appoint for us from Yourself a protector and appoint for us from Yourself a helper?”
4:76 Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who disbelieve fight in the cause of Taghut. So fight against the allies of Satan. Indeed, the plot of Satan has ever been weak.
4:77 Have you not seen those who were told, “Restrain your hands [from fighting] and establish prayer and give zakah”? But then when fighting was ordained for them, at once a party of them feared men as they fear God or with [even] greater fear. They said, “Our Lord, why have You decreed upon us fighting? If only You had postponed [it for] us for a short time.” Say, The enjoyment of this world is little, and the Hereafter is better for he who fears God. And injustice will not be done to you, [even] as much as a thread [inside a date seed].”
Something wrong with fighting for the oppressed?
Lets read the next verse
4:90 Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.
hmm, leave them alone when they stop fighting. huh, sounds so violent right?
Lets put it in context
8:9 [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, “Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another.”
8:10 And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah . Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
8:11 [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.
8:12 [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, “I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip.”
8:13 That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger – indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
8:14 “That [is yours], so taste it.” And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.
8:15 O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].
8:16 And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah , and his refuge is Hell – and wretched is the destination.
8:17 And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them. And you threw not, [O Muhammad], when you threw, but it was Allah who threw that He might test the believers with a good test. Indeed, Allah is Hearing and Knowing.
8:18 That [is so], and [also] that Allah will weaken the plot of the disbelievers.
8:19 If you [disbelievers] seek the victory – the defeat has come to you. And if you desist [from hostilities], it is best for you; but if you return [to war], We will return, and never will you be availed by your [large] company at all, even if it should increase; and [that is] because Allah is with the believers.
This is the battle of Badr, when the Quraish went out of their way with 1000 men to slaughter the muslims in Medina. This was saying how they will fight to the death to defend their faith, no holds barred, everything goes, total victory because the sky father is on their side apparently. Once they stop fighting, allah says let them go.
The verses I quoted are actually far more sinister than your juvenile attempts to cherry pick.
Lets read the verse right after.
8:61 And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.
So basically, fight and kill them all, but if they want peace, you give them peace, the smelly brown god says so.
This was before the battle with Byzantines at Tabuk. The word in arabic jahidu is commonly mistranslated as fight, when it is actually strive. This was dealing with the hypocrites, in that they claim to be believers but commit crimes against allah. You rebuke them when they do wrong. So basically muslim on muslim crime.
This was in the context of the battle with the Banu Qurayzah who allied with the Pagan arabs from Mecca to kill the muslims.
Now this one is just lazy. awliya, the arabic word gets translated as friend. Its real meaning is much closer to guardian, patron, ally. Basically, dont rely and depend on christians because they serve christians, the jews to jews, so trust your fellow muslims. Its in the context of war.
O ye who believe! Choose not My enemy and your enemy for allies(awliya) . Do ye give them friendship when they disbelieve in that truth which hath come unto you, driving out the messenger and you because ye believe in Allah, your Lord? If ye have come forth to strive in My way and seeking My good pleasure, (show them not friendship). Do ye show friendship unto them in secret, when I am Best Aware of what ye hide and what ye proclaim? And whosoever doeth it among you, he verily hath strayed from the right way. – Quran 60:1
Again, context of war. The verse and sūrah was revealed in 3 A.H./625 C.E. after the battle of Badr and Uhud when the Muslims were in a state of confrontation with the unbelievers. Keeping this backdrop in mind, whenever conditions are hostile, people of other faith causing the hostility cannot be trusted to uphold the interest of the Muslims
“God does not forbid you, with regard to those who do not fight you on account of your religion nor drive you out of your homes, to treat them with goodness and to be just to them; truly, God loves those who are just.” – Quran 60:8
See?
Common mistranslation, not ruthless, its strong. Strong in the sense they dont bend to nonbelievers. And even if it were ruthless, reading the context like
They are the ones who disbelieved and obstructed you from al-Masjid al-Haram while the offering was prevented from reaching its place of sacrifice. And if not for believing men and believing women whom you did not know - that you might trample them and there would befall you because of them dishonor without [your] knowledge - [you would have been permitted to enter Makkah]. [This was so] that Allah might admit to His mercy whom He willed. If they had been apart [from them], We would have punished those who disbelieved among them with painful punishment 48:25
It refers to non-believers who interfere with muslim faith. So again, nothing special. Every religion has a disdain for heathens with their hellfire and eternal punishment.
Really pathetic attempts here. Its like if I quote Matthew 10:24 out of context. Its just intellectually dishonest.
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i.e. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion. They basically attack because we don't believe in controlling the same freedoms they do. I think this zealotry drives the basic attackers, but the higher ups who call the shots are basically politicians trying to keep influence.
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Really? I dont think any muslims dream of going to Ethiopia, Kenya, Moldova, Armenia, Zambia, Romania, Mexico, Guatemala, hell most migrants wouldnt even want Poland probably.
Most desired countries? Germany (east germany has the highest rate of atheism), Sweden, UK, all countries that are christian in name only.
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You are pushing at an open door with me if your view that christian doctrine is insane. However, the Bible has huge differences with the Quran. Jesus never gives Christians commands to convert, subjugate or kill non believers wherever you find them. Jesus never commands people to use Jihad as the primary source of spreading the faith.
I've heard the excuses before. "Oh, come on, Muhammed was just talking about a specific time and place!!" He routinely calls for the faith to be spread wherever there is fitnah, or disbelief. The Quran is very clear, any truce with nonbelievers is to be temporary, and utilized as a strategy for future conquest. Any land taken by Muslims can never be rescinded (This is why Osama Bin Laden, in 2001, was still bitching and moaning about Andalucia). The Quran and Hadith both make the principle means in which to spread the faith quite clear: Jihad, and conquest.
Men like Bin Laden knew their Quran, and knew their Hadith. That is why the fundamentals of Islam are so destructive, because a man like that can plausibly interpret the word as calling for total world domination. The Muslim scholars know this, why do you deny this?
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So you cherrypicked verses from the quran, I showed the context, and then instead of addressing it you go back to misquoting the quran. Astounding.
the real danger with the quran is that because it deals with actions in war time, a muslim leader can simply decide when they are at war or what is an act of aggression. The quran's basic message is fuck the non-believers, let the smelly brown god deal with them you dont cast judgement. But if they mess with you, attack until they beg for mercy. But rather than identifying that, you hurt your own argument by trying to cherry pick the quran.
And Jesus didnt need to command Christians to kill heathens, christians did it anyway. I get real tired of equating Christians with Jesus. For the last 2000 years they've shown they dont give a flying fuck what jesus said.
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Cherrypicked? Really?
Well, let us see the Hadith, then, shall we?
“It is he (Allah) who has sent his Messenger (saw) with guidance and the religion of truth, in order for it to be dominant over all other religions, even though the Mushrikoon (disbelievers) hate it.” (EMQ at-Tawbah, 9: 33)
“Verily Allah has shown me the eastern and western part of the earth, and I saw the authority of my Ummah (nation) dominate all that I saw.” (Saheeh Muslim, hadeeth #2889)
We know what the doctrine says about shirk, or man made law. It is not to be followed.
Quranic scholars have been justifying the bloodlust of Muslim Nations for over a thousand years. One need not work hard at all to look at a nation like america, with it's man made law, and see, as a Muslim, that this nation is countermand to sharia law and Muslim values. Any act can be rationalized as self defense in Islamic states.
Whether or not christians follow jesus, which they really dont, this does nothing to do away with the fact that Muhammed directly called in the Quran, and the Hadiths reinforced, domination of all other beliefs in whatever lands there are Muslims. Nobody attacked the Muslim hordes before they attacked Spain in the 600s. The scholars had no problem justifying their aggression whatsoever, and they dont now.
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The hadiths are horrific and are the basis of Sharia law. The issue, which hadiths apply to what which is a source of constant debate. Theres no unified opinion on them. The hadiths were observances of people who claimed to be there at the time of Mohammed including quotes atrributed to him. Mohammed himself was a scumbag no one is denying that.The validity of the quran however cant be, in their eyes its the word of god. And yes you did cherry pick. You literally took the verse "kill them all" without taking the next line that says until they beg for mercy. Thats literally cherrypicking. you can do the same with the bible
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/zack-hunt/reading-the-bible-like-we_b_6647950.html
Every religion believes it will dominate the world. Every religion is stupid.
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Buhkari's Hadith has been taken as essentially correct by Muslim scholars for over a thousand years.
The passage you are referring to simply reinforces my point. Subjugate, convert or kill all kafir until there is no fitnah. When you force people to convert to your faith or be divine subjects, you are dominating them no less.
Every religion does not say it will dominate the world. Buddhism and Jainism are two easy examples off top.
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So you posted
It is he (Allah) who has sent his Messenger (saw) with guidance and the religion of truth, in order for it to be dominant over all other religions, even though the Mushrikoon (disbelievers) hate it.” (EMQ at-Tawbah, 9: 33)
Idk where you get subjugation from it. Its basically the muslims are right and out truth will be everywhere , pagans can go screw themselves. Again not much different than the Bible.
And what about about the guys who worship the zombie jew?
Genesis 22:17
indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.
Deuteronomy 12:29-31
“When the Lord your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
Some countries get to go to hell, yay!
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Once again, nobody is denying the fact that God, especially that of the Old Testament is to be avoided at all costs. There are differences between these faiths though. Muhammed and his religion claim that there's is the complete and final revelation, and the principle means in which the faith is to be spread is with war through Jihad.
We all know what Muslim dominance means, obfuscation or no.
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so youre extrapolating the meaning based off.... Cuz that hadith doesnt say subjugation. Islam itself is horrific but youre not attacking the right way. You dont just make shit up and find the evidence for it, resorting to cherry picking and your own interpretations.
and in the grand scheme of things if one religion had shitty intentions and its adherents did unspeakable things, and another religion had even shittier intentions and its adherents did unspeakable things, does it really matter?
And what does it mean? There are over 15 muslim majority countries with secular constitutions, there are 5 of them that prohibit long islamic looking beards and hijabs in public places like schools. in one them that i actually know of, being associated wahabism could get you killed.
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If I dominate you as a Muslim, you are subjugated, murdered, or converted. The Sharia is extremely clear, the Quran is extremely clear, and the Hadith are extremely clear.
I made nothing up, and brought verses from the Quran and Hadith.
Christians have Jesus, who in their minds, remedies the appalling views of morality in the old testament. Not even Jews today follow the old testament seriously. They had massive reforms that actually made a difference. Islam has had no such real reforms, and that is the difference, alongside the aformentioned final revelation and Jihad as the method of domination.
Your final paragraph means nothing, except to highlight the fact that the Quran and Islamic doctrine is so insane, they kill each other for theological grievances on a scale no other religion aspires to.
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This is absolutely the case when it comes to the alt-left.
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You seem like one of the more reasonable posters so I'm gonna try to level with you.
Once again, where is your basis for Muslims demanding subjugation? You seem to once again quote the verse about killing (out of context) as proof that Muslims want to slaughter people which we have gone over and is simply invalid. I hope I don't have to explain this again.
You then extrapolate what you want it to mean and then refuse to see my point. You didn't simply bring verses from the Quran, you misquoted them out of context.
As for my last paragraph, it directly refutes your statement. You said Muslims demand subjugation, if they did, 15 Muslim countries are doing a terrible job and 5 Muslim majority countries are committing grave atrocities against Islam. It shows that there are Muslims who are secular, and are not bloodthirsty savages that you paint them to be. You failing to grasp that is quite alarming.
And let's not start on intra religious killings over sectarian disputes over doctrine
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I never really considered it, but the message was basically: "They hate us cause they ain't us"
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My basis for the demand for conversion, subjugation or death for kafir is the Quran, Hadith, over a thousands years of Muslims scholarship, and the sharia.
If one wants to state that these violent verses are only to be taken within a specific context, towards Muhammed's enemies who forced him to flee to Medina, I would enjoin one to explain as to why the Muslim hordes rampaged westward, taking land, subjugating converting or killing everyone they came across.
I am not blanket generalizing all Muslims as being bloodthirsty savages. I am pointing out the violence, and need to subjugate convert or kill people, within the doctrines of Islam.
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OK at this point you refuse to admit you're cherry picking, once you admit that, you have no evidence. This discussion isn't gonna go anywhere until you admit that.
As for you question on the expansion, is it unique to Islam to misuse and misquote scripture to justify horrendous atrocities? You seem to constantly give a pass to the good book and its imaginary sky father.
If Jesus or the Bible told people to love one another, why did Christians destroy pagan temples and force convert pagans, and drive Muslims and Jews from their homes?
Because they're shitty people. This is where we can both agree. The compulsion to murder and attack and expand isn't inherent in the Quran, it is however within the Muslim leaders ability to justify it. Much like how colonists justified slavery with the Bible.
