Powerlifters in BJJ competitions

[Daniel Fox]

My point wasn't that general strength can't be better measured through compound lifts than it can technical applications like suplexing someone. My point was that if what you're interested in is suplexing people, it's not wrong to talk about someone being stronger with respect to that activity than someone else with less skill at suplexing people but better weight room numbers. Which is what I think @Daniel Fox was talking about, and which we've all experienced if we've been grappling a while. Part of it is just pure technique, but part of it is also actual strength built through repetition as the motions of grappling are very, very different from the motions of powerlifting and build a very different type of muscular strength. For example, how much rotational strength is involved in any of the power lifts? Not really much of any IMO. Are the hips and abs made strong from powerlifting? Yes, of course, but the CNS adaptations which as you probably know account for a significant amount of demonstrable strrength are not going to be there the same way they are for a Judoka who has been twisting people over his hips for years. Big compound lifts are the best way to develop general strength, especially in the prime movers, but the ability to apply strength is limited by the weakest link and if that link is something you don't really train in the weight room but train on the mat all the time it's entirely possible for someone with somewhat lower lifting numbers to actually be stronger in grappling movements.

Agree 100%

 

[TheeFaulted]

This is a never-ending debate in strength forums for years and years - "skill" of a motion vs "strength" of a muscle. I don't think you can separate the two personally - the body is a unit and there are many factors that lead to ability to output force, from cognitively learning a technique, to gaining skill in it, muscular hypertrophy, and so on and so forth.

It's only an ongoing debate with people who don't really understand. I see it every year with my wrestlers. Those that come back after lifting in the off season are stronger, even though they haven't worked on their technique at all. Yes we have to work on motor patterns and teach them how to apply that strength better, but there is no denying that GPP benefits them. It's the same as those who do roadwork in the off season. Yes they need to work on their wrestling and anerobic systems, but that cardio base assists them in getting there.

 

[Bubblun]

Strength is best going to be measured with a simple movement over a complicated one. Suplexing a resisting opponent is going to take much more technique than a squat.

You are correct in that we cannot completely remove technique from a test of strength, but we can sure mitigate it's effects by focusing on a movement that takes less technique to complete.


Nope. Technique and strength are not the same thing. This is so obvious it's hard to even comprehend someone not knowing this. If you have a wrestler with great technique in a movement, and over the off season he gets much stronger, not by doing the movement but by spending time in the weight room, he's going to get stronger even though his technique hasn't improved.


To compete at a high level in powerlifting you'll have to master the skill of the powerlifts as well as develop the brute strength. That however doesn't invalidate anything I've said. Any proper strength training program is going to be periodized to included sport specific training to teach the motor patterns to properly apply that brute strength

I am young and quite strong, i did a lot of strength training before starting grappling as an adult, i usually do very well in grappling competition by using my physicality overwhelming the opponent, snapping down the opponent, front headlock, passing the guard, staying on top, the usual "strong guy" game.
I got the chance to train with a retired very high level wrestler, this guy competed at 65kilos, when i grappled with him he was completely out of shape, he was 200 pounds fat, he looked like a pizza maker not a former athlete.
I tried to snap him down, doing my usual stuff, he just stood here immobile, i couldn't even move him.
I am younger, a lot stronger than him in the weight room, and he wasn't even trying, it was like trying to snap down a statue.
That's not definitely magic, or technique, it was strength, postural strength honed by a lifetime on the mats getting your head and neck bashed by other brutes every day since he was a child.


Squatting and the deadlift are good measures of strength, but they are not THE measure of strength.
Strength is functional to the movement, same reason why armwrestlers are stronger than weightlifters in some angles of movements (no, it's not only technique, they are also a lot stronger in the movements they master and do a lot of "functional" strength training for their sport).

Travis Stevens, Olympic silver medalist in judo, has said that the best strength exercise for judo is the "towel" pull up with the judo gi, it's not hard to wonder why.
He has also said he doesn't want to go too hard in the bench press because you need to be very careful how much muscle mass you want to put in some parts of your body, if is not "functional" the your sport.

 

[TheeFaulted]

Weeelllll....yes, that is true as well of course, since I'm just as strong now and do better in that regard (always a struggle still nonetheless)...but I do think that having strength on top of a lack of cardio and poor technique makes you gas that much faster - this seems to be the case in others as well, for extreme examples you can see when strongmen start doing MMA - they have the world's worst gas tanks. It certainly seems to be the case in general. It's like a forumula-1 race car vs a Honda Civic or something - if you put an unskilled driver in both the race car will burn through its fuel and shred its tires faster. Or something like that.

I'm glad I have the strength now though, of course. Particularly as a bit older practicioner it really is nice.

Yes, having poor cardio means you will have poor cardio. How strong you were had nothing to do with the equation. Strongmen do poor in MMA, not because they are strong, but because they haven't the skills nor have they properly trained their energy systems. Their strength level means nothing to how they will gas.

 

[TheeFaulted]

I am young and quite strong, i did a lot of strength training before starting grappling as an adult, i usually do very well in grappling competition by using my physicality overwhelming the opponent, snapping down the opponent, front headlock, passing the guard, staying on top, the usual "strong guy" game.
I got the chance to train with a retired very high level wrestler, this guy competed at 65kilos, when i grappled with him he was completely out of shape, he was 200 pounds fat, he looked like a pizza maker not a former athlete.
I tried to snap him down, doing my usual stuff, he just stood here immobile, i couldn't even move him.
I am younger, a lot stronger than him in the weight room, and he wasn't even trying, it was like trying to snap down a statue.
That's not definitely magic, or technique, it was strength, postural strength honed by a lifetime on the mats getting your head and neck bashed by other brutes every day since he was a child.

None of that disproves anything I've said. Being younger means nothing. What he looks like means nothing.

Squatting and the deadlift are good measures of strength, but they are not THE measure of strength.
Strength is functional to the movement, same reason why armwrestlers are stronger than weightlifters in some angles of movements (no, it's not only technique, they are also a lot stronger in the movements they master and do a lot of "functional" strength training for their sport).

Travis Stevens, Olympic silver medalist in judo, has said that the best strength exercise for judo is the towel pull up with the judo gi, it's not hard to wonder why.
He has also said he doesn't want to go too hard in the bench press because you need to be very careful how much muscle mass you want to put in some parts of your body, if is not "functional" the your sport.

There is nothing magical about gi pullups. They're the same as pul ups, but they train your grip as well. I on't have any issue with them, I like to use them myself. Not sure what you think this means, as it obviously strength training other than the sport itself. I've said multiple times in this thread that sport specific training phase after a GPP phase is important to learn how to apply that general strength to your sport.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I understand what your saying but if you take 2 complete novices that are of similar height and weight the person who is stronger will almost definitely have an easier time suplexing someone. General strength is directly applicable to grappling.

Well, yeah, I don't think that's controversial. But no one was talking about two novices. We were talking about the strength in executing grappling moves of a novice grappler with good lifting #s vs. a very experienced grappler with less impressive lifts.

 

[Balto]

This is one of those fantasy threads that never happens in reality. Where everyone works out what body types would be beast grapplers on paper but somehow they never are any good on a real mat.

It's like talking about how NBA players would dominate boxing if they wanted to because no one could match their reach, etc. I guess it's a little fun to speculate, but there are a bunch of reasons why that's impossible in reality.

At a certain point, being too strong will hurt your BJJ. Period. It just takes too much effort to build and maintain that strength level for it to be any other way. Hence why we never see high level powerlifters with truly scary strength doing well in BJJ at a high level. It's not like nobody has come up with this idea before. It just doesn't work.

It's not a matter of just doing more cardio or just lifting more weights. At some point a human body can only be adapted to do so many things at one time. You are never going to see a truly elite powerlifter also be an elite marathon runner. The two things are just too different.

BJJ is a much more middle of the road athletic activity, and it is going to be dominated by guys with middle of the road attributes. That's just how it is.

I will say that a lot of BJJ guys who do zero lifting would probably get a lot of benefit out of lifting some. But it's not going to be some super advanced competitive powerlifting program, and they wouldn't be nearly as good at BJJ if they committed to one. Just like how all the wear and tear of running mileage training for a marathon would be detrimental to a BJJ competitor's training, even if he'd have "insane cardio" in theory from it.

The World's Strongest Man switching over to BJJ and going on a tear is just never going to happen. Pure fantasy.