Positioning and what it means to you - Pt. 1:

[Sinister]

Aren't your lead hand and center line always "related" ?

Define "related."

 

[a guy]

Here's the thing about that clip, Gonzalez' opponent had a correct angle, but never really the correct distance. And it's through a key deception in blending the two. I don't know if this will make sense in type but it's something Dadi and I went over in person:

If my lead hand is the threat to you, you CANNOT move around the hand itself. For instance, if I pull a knife on a guy and he would like to try and defend himself, he can't move around the knife. Especially if say, I have another knife. If he focuses on one, the lead one, he'll get stabbed by the other one. But by focus I mean make it his pivot point. If he is to attack or defend, he has to maintain positioning at my center line. Think BEYOND the knife. Now take a look at that gif again. Gonzalez begins to prod at the opponent with the left hand, and he does so very well. His positioning is still fairly solid even with the head forward as his head doesn't go beyond the lead foot, but you're right in perceiving that he is weak to his own left side. BUT, the opponent isn't pivoting around Gonzalez center-line, once that lead hand threatens, he's trying to pivot around the hand. Dadi would say: "If you get a guy moving around your hand, he's done. He won't see any other attack coming." And then BLAMMO, right hand and it's as if the guy had no clue it was coming, and he was facing the right direction, but at the wrong turning point.

That's some deeply insightful stuff. Thank you. It makes a lot of sense now, I can picture a bunch of big punches that have landed as the guy walked into them while looking at and trying to move around the other hand. Awesome.

 

[shs101]

That's some deeply insightful stuff. Thank you. It makes a lot of sense now, I can picture a bunch of big punches that have landed as the guy walked into them while looking at and trying to move around the other hand. Awesome.

What does one mean by, "moving around the hand" in boxing terms here? I just don't understand.

 

[Discipulus]

What does one mean by, "moving around the hand" in boxing terms here? I just don't understand.

Essentially, I think Luis was saying not to focus on the hand itself and therefore make it your pivot point. Your goal in moving laterally or circularly should be to get around the center of your opponent's body, not around his hands. It seems to be because the trajectory of the hand can change very easily, so that changing your angle relative to one can put you into the path of the other, or make you susceptible to a circular punch. Whereas pivoting away from the opponent's center line will create a bit more distance between yourself and the hand you feel threatened by.

It's not something I think I could ever implement live, what with my tendency to overthink as it is, but I think I understand the principle.

I'll try to explain it another way, because this just clicked for me: Gonzalez's opponent, in my GIF, turned to get away from Gonzalez's left hand, but actually gave up the angle for the right in the process, and ended up walking backwards along the path of the left hook. Had he stayed a little closer to Gonzalez and just cut a tight angle to his left, he would have been too close for Gonzalez's right hand to be a threat, and too far around Gonzalez's body for the left. As it was, he did turn but stayed in front of Gonzalez regardless, when he should have used that turn to move around his opponent entirely.

 

[shpboris]

Define "related."

Looks like this answers my question - " It seems to be because the trajectory of the hand can change very easily, so that changing your angle relative to one can put you into the path of the other, or make you susceptible to a circular punch. Whereas pivoting away from the opponent's center line will create a bit more distance between yourself and the hand you feel threatened by."

Is that ^ what you meant initially ?

If yes - how exactly do you distinguish between where the real centerline is and the direction of the lead hand ? Lead hand may block your vision, also it threatens you - so natural assumption during the sparring would be that this is where the centerline.

 

[Discipulus]

Looks like this answers my question - " It seems to be because the trajectory of the hand can change very easily, so that changing your angle relative to one can put you into the path of the other, or make you susceptible to a circular punch. Whereas pivoting away from the opponent's center line will create a bit more distance between yourself and the hand you feel threatened by."

Is that ^ what you meant initially ?

If yes - how exactly do you distinguish between where the real centerline is and the direction of the lead hand ? Lead hand may block your vision, also it threatens you - so natural assumption during the sparring would be that this is where the centerline.

The center line is just the center line. No extra indicators required. Draw a line from the guy's throat to his crotch.

 

[a guy]

Looks like this answers my question - " It seems to be because the trajectory of the hand can change very easily, so that changing your angle relative to one can put you into the path of the other, or make you susceptible to a circular punch. Whereas pivoting away from the opponent's center line will create a bit more distance between yourself and the hand you feel threatened by."

Is that ^ what you meant initially ?

If yes - how exactly do you distinguish between where the real centerline is and the direction of the lead hand ? Lead hand may block your vision, also it threatens you - so natural assumption during the sparring would be that this is where the centerline.

The point about the lead hand threatening and blinding you is exactly the point! That's a good observation, but the lead hand isn't the same as the centerline. When their lead hand is threatening you enough to cause you to lose sight of their center, then you're likely to move into their rear hand. Or if you're too worried about their right, you'll run into their left. It's a simple concept taken to advanced levels of application I believe.

 

[shpboris]

The center line is just the center line. No extra indicators required. Draw a line from the guy's throat to his crotch.

On a standing opponent it is clear.

But ,say, your opponent moves/pivots while sticking his lead into your face etc - then to correctly face the opponents' centerline looks not so easy. I actually think no easy way to solve that ... Do I miss something ?

 

[Discipulus]

On a standing opponent it is clear.

But ,say, your opponent moves/pivots while sticking his lead into your face etc - then to correctly face the opponents' centerline looks not so easy. I actually think no easy way to solve that ... Do I miss something ?

His center line doesn't have to be exposed for you to be facing it. For example this is facing the center line . . .

. . . but so is this:

 

[shpboris]

His center line doesn't have to be exposed for you to be facing it. For example this is facing the center line . . .

. . . but so is this:

How do you know what to face in a dynamic fight ? That's my question ...

Because, against quality opponent it looks not easy and more so I believe there is no good solution for that. May be just some things that may help.

 

[Discipulus]

How do you know what to face in a dynamic fight ? That's my question ...

Because, against quality opponent it looks not easy and more so I believe there is no good solution for that. May be just some things that may help.

I don't understand your confusion, really. You face his center line. When he turns you adjust to face it again, or hit him while he's turning. It's as simple (and as complicated) as that.

 

[shpboris]

but the lead hand isn't the same as the centerline. When their lead hand is threatening you enough to cause you to lose sight of their center

That is exactly my question - any known approaches to locate\continue to face that center and not to confuse it with opponent's lead hand direction ?

 

[a guy]

That is exactly my question - any known approaches to locate\continue to face that center and not to confuse it with opponent's lead hand direction ?

You have to find a way to deal with the threat without stopping everything else to do it.

 

[Sinister]

That is exactly my question - any known approaches to locate\continue to face that center and not to confuse it with opponent's lead hand direction ?

boris, you just opened the door to me posting something I've been wanting to post, but didn't want to create a whole new thread over. But the answer to your question is yes, and you've seen it before. The circle drill is what I use, though other trainers tend to use simpler methods. Like merely saying "always face the other guy"...but that can lead to confusion of the kind that you're asking. Face him, but what part of him...and more importantly, HOW? This is the sort of thing that as a budding trainer irks my nerves because it's something other "more experienced" trainers yell at other kids, but have given them no basic instruction of how to do. The circle drill is one of what I call "baby work"...because I often tell new students they have to learn how to form their hand, how to stand, how to take single steps, etc...all over again. So, when they know how to form a fist, how to stand, how to take single steps, how to punch, then I teach them how to track a moving target:



The notion is, no matter where or how he moves, she tracks his center line by pointing her lead toe at it, even after defending herself, she always RE-threatens him. Now, what benefit does this reap? Should be obvious, but let's say it's not so obvious. Here's a sparring session, watch what happens when the opponent loses track of my girl (in the black headgear and black shorts), happens a lot in the 3rd round just after the 9 minute mark for you lazy asses:



And before anyone asks, circle drill vs. southpaw is here.

 

[Redtarget]

Reading the last few pages I am confused as to how the opponents lead hand can play a trick on you and make you not properly face the centerline (if thats the arguement)? I feel after Sinisters instruction on the center the past year or 2 on here, I felt good with it....but this whole new thing on the thread, about the OPPONENTS lead hand facilitating your direction to them is something I never heard of it....

 

[Sinister]

It's just a lapse of judgment that happens, as boris has stated, in a dynamic fight. In the gif Connor posted, Gonzalez isn't starching a shitty fighter. What he did was trick a good fighter into moving AROUND his left hand to get away from it, instead of around is body to keep all of his defensive integrity. Like Connor suggested, if he'd have moved relative to Gonzalez' body, cut a tighter angle and in a more stable position (feet in position, weight low), he'd have actually had EVERY advantage on Gonzalez and might have gotten a knockdown himself. But his movement is in relation only to the threat of the left, thus, he moved into the correct distance TO be hit very hard by the right.

My girl does that to the other girl in the above sparring a couple of times, albeit accidentally, and due to her being educated on not losing track easily, she's in good positions to take advantage of it.

 

[a guy]

I really like that circle drill. My coach had me do it some, and I started drilling it on my own a lot. Now I feel like not only can people not get angles on me, they can't get away from me easily either.

 

[Discipulus]

It's just a lapse of judgment that happens, as boris has stated, in a dynamic fight. In the gif Connor posted, Gonzalez isn't starching a shitty fighter. What he did was trick a good fighter into moving AROUND his left hand to get away from it, instead of around is body to keep all of his defensive integrity. Like Connor suggested, if he'd have moved relative to Gonzalez' body, cut a tighter angle and in a more stable position (feet in position, weight low), he'd have actually had EVERY advantage on Gonzalez and might have gotten a knockdown himself. But his movement is in relation only to the threat of the left, thus, he moved into the correct distance TO be hit very hard by the right.

My girl does that to the other girl in the above sparring a couple of times, albeit accidentally, and due to her being educated on not losing track easily, she's in good positions to take advantage of it.

And that right hand wasn't even clean. The other guy was just completely unprepared to withstand it.

That's something that Dadi opened my eyes to, and I'm only now just starting to understand it. When he mentioned that the body jab is THE punch to set up the overhand... I just realized that the tiny angles he's talking about--like when a guy shows you his temple while defending that jab--are the same idea. The correct reaction would be to take an angle away from the guy throwing the jab, not the jab itself.

Those tiny misjudgments can be huge in a fight.

 

[shpboris]

The notion is, no matter where or how he moves, she tracks his center line by pointing her lead toe at it, even after defending herself, she always RE-threatens him.

I like the drill. But I wonder what happens, when opponent is just blocking your vision with his lead hand. How do you know where to point your toe then ?

My feeling, is that no easy solution exists for that and you basically have to deal with that lead. Otherwise you are f...cked. Am I correct ?

 

[Cyclone Mike]

I like the drill. But I wonder what happens, when opponent is just blocking your vision with his lead hand. How do you know where to point your toe then ?

My feeling, is that no easy solution exists for that and you basically have to deal with that lead. Otherwise you are f...cked. Am I correct ?

You just have to point your lead foot at your opponents dick, it doesn't matter what direction he is facing. You should be able to do that with a glove in your face, but if you are fighting blind for a long period of time... that sucks.

No one's going to blind you for an entire fight, but if they're constantly disguising an angle change during/after a jab that's clouding your vision, that's just good for him and bad for you.