Philippe Rushton vs. David Suzuki: Debate for the ages about race

Why are there more Chinese than Africans then?

The reason why there are more Chinese is because they developed to have the means with which to sustain a large population, earlier than any other civilization. Not because of any exceptional birth rate.

However, as we have now granted such means to the Africans, not necessarily through their own doing, but regardless, we will eventually see them eclipse even the Chinese and the Indian in the number of population, in the coming century, provided that their societies do not collapse before that happens. Which is likely, but the will of the Europeans to provide for the Africans may allow for the delay of the inevitable.

This was what would've happened to a highly fertile human population without the means to sustain the numbers:

http://septentrio.uit.no/index.php/rangifer/article/view/1783

Novgorod serves as a fine example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliky_Novgorod#Expansion_of_Muscovy
 
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The reason why there are more Chinese is because they developed to have the means with which to sustain a large population, earlier than any other civilization. Not because of any exceptional birth rate.

However, as we have now granted such means to the Africans, not necessarily through their own doing, but regardless, we will eventually see them eclipse even the Chinese and the Indian in the number of population, in the coming century, provided that their societies do not collapse before that happens. Which is likely, but the will of the Europeans to provide for the Africans may allow for the delay of the inevitable.

This was what would've happened to a highly fertile human population without the means to sustain the numbers:

http://septentrio.uit.no/index.php/rangifer/article/view/1783

Novgorod serves as a fine example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veliky_Novgorod#Expansion_of_Muscovy

But at the same time, you need to birth rate to get up to that large population you can sustain.
 
Thats where I went to grad school!

Suzuki is a complaining, whining bitch.
 
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You ought to acknowledge that the evolution process does not take hold in a period of perhaps 200 to 300 years. If the Russians, for example, are separated into two people, and forced to live on two different parts of the Earth, they will not develop to be genetically different from one another in period of a century or so. We are talking about tens of thousands of years of development overall, which separate the European people from the African (particularly those populations who have not seen much interactions between one another in the past tens of thousands of years). To understand how physical differences may have developed, one has to observe the general trend, rather than grasping to the exceptions.

I believe the Viking age represented a deviation from the norm, in regards to the Nordic way of life. It spawned as a result of an external threat, Christianity, and the expanding Christian empires. Previously, as the climate had grown tougher than normal, and as technological innovation allowed for increased mobility of people, but without having developed to the point of allowing the continued sustainment of excess population, Nordic people had abandoned Scandinavia, conquered lands in Southern Europe and settled there. The Goths, for example, were believed to originate from Scandinavia's harsh climate. The Visigoths eventually settled to Spain and the Ostrogoths eventually settled to Italy. The Vandals conquered lands in North Africa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths#Origins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutasaga#Emigration_to_southern_Europe

The information about the Finns is meant to enlighten you on the primitive way of life in northern Europe, before farming, building houses, making settlements. It required extra-ordinary capacities from the individual, and a close attachment to nature, and exceptional understanding of it. It's a very different way of life from what, for example, the Mediterranean man would've been accustomed to.

There is no way that families of 7-8 children could've been raised under such conditions. That is the condition under which the Nordic man has operated, for the better part of the tens of thousands of years that he has been inhabiting Scandinavia, and other Northern climates. The Viking era, or the era of Germanic migration to the South, or this era, would be a blip on the radar by comparison.

I am getting very confused here. Perhaps its been a misunderstanding. I never claimed vikings had 7-8 children, i said that vikings would have 6-7 children, where like half of them would die. In other words a Norse woman would be pregnant many time just like women in 3rd World today but would still have fewer children because of high Infant mortality and other factors.

I hope that clears things up.

Next confusing thing is your statement about Germanic Tribes.

You first said that they had fewer children, then i mentioned Vikings and you said that they had more children and became Vikings but only because of the expansion of Christianity (which is again VERY debatable but this is OT) and that they are exception, while other Germanic tribes that faced similar threat didn't react in the same way. But then again you said that Scandinavians couldn't sustain large families because of the climate.

Also according to you, warfare leads to families producing more children, and Germanic cultures were for the most part warrior cultures. Yet according to your wikepedia link they produced fewer children.

This should be cleared up in order for us to have a more productive discussion.

Now when it comes to physiological differences between races, the fertility rates is not the best place to look at. It is too many variables and unknowns across space and time to really see a clear pattern. imo
Besides AFAIK number of children correlates more with rural areas and farms. EDIT: And intellect.
 
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I am getting very confused here. Perhaps its been a misunderstanding. I never claimed vikings had 7-8 children, i said that vikings would have 6-7 children, where like half of them would die. In other words a Norse woman would be pregnant many time just like women in 3rd World today but would still have fewer children because of high Infant mortality and other factors.

I hope that clears things up.

Next confusing thing is your statement about Germanic Tribes.

You first said that they had fewer children, then i mentioned Vikings and you said that they had more children and became Vikings but only because of the expansion of Christianity (which is again VERY debatable but this is OT) and that they are exception, while other Germanic tribes that faced similar threat didn't react in the same way. But then again you said that Scandinavians couldn't sustain large families because of the climate.

The point is that you presented the Vikings as evidence to the contrary when it comes to North Europeans being overall less fertile, and biologically being less inclined to having many children, than the Africans. I presented proof that the culture in Scandinavia was greatly different prior to the Viking era (one could say, matriarchal and demilitarized, not much different from now ironically), and that the Viking era, was in many ways, a deviation from how Northern European people were accustomed to living. Within a period of tens of thousands of years, that period in time only accounts to a blip on the radar.

For the most part, they lived in a cold, hard climate and were required to plan the number of sustainable children, without the possibility to raid neighbouring civilizations for increased prosperity.

Also according to you, warfare leads to families producing more children,

It's not according to me, but according to common sense. Look at the population boom after World War II, as an example. And the resulting decline, in peace-time.

and Germanic cultures were for the most part warrior cultures. Yet according to your wikepedia link they produced fewer children.

In the early/middle medieval times? Not really. Only the Scandinavins were, by the Middle Ages, what I would call a Germanic warrior culture.

It is my assumption that there was a great deal more to the Germanic cultures than being "warriors", and that warfare was only emphasized during periods of time when their civilization was threatened externally (by for example, the Roman Empire or Christian invasions). Excess population growth wouldn't have been the norm, except as a response. Roman texts lend credibility to this theory. The further the Germanic civilizations resided from the crude reality of having to do battle against the Romans, the more docile their behaviour, to the point where even females would be elected as leaders, and men would walk unarmed.

It is also my belief that if the Germanic cultures are threatened today, they will also adopt a patriarchal system, which emphasizes population growth and militarism, as a response to an external threat. We saw that with the Nazis, and perhaps, we are seeing it today. The pattern has repeated itself enough times historically, to be given credibility. Once we acknowledge this, it ought to become our duty to prevent a similar chain of events from taking place in our lifetimes, to prevent triggering a primal survival instinct which halts the progression of a society, as it searches security in "true and tested" patriarchal tradition.

Now when it comes to physiological differences between races, the fertility rates is not the best place to look at. It is too many variables and unknowns across space and time to really see a clear pattern. imo
Besides AFAIK number of children correlates more with rural areas and farms. EDIT: And intellect.

Fertility rates are not the best place to look at. Clear physical differences are.

You will see the greatest population growth in history as Africa is now given the means with which to grow, which it previously did not possess. This will be greatly enhanced by their particular physical attributes compared to the already great growth of the Asian and the European, which has now largely halted.

Of course, this growth can only be enabled through assistance from the European, as otherwise the African societies would collapse under this great population growth.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/jun/13/nigeria-larger-population-us-2050

The growth of the Africans, unlike the Europeans or the Asians, won't be boosted by a post-World War boom period, but rather their natural inclination. We can act blind to it, but honestly it doesn't really matter what we think of it. Nature will run its course either way, regardless of our opinions on the subject.

These are among the issues that we are going to be dealing with for the next century or so. Great mass movements of people are bound to occur as the human population grows beyond its limits.
 
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The point is that you presented the Vikings as evidence to the contrary when it comes to North Europeans being overall less fertile, and biologically being less inclined to having many children, than the Africans. I presented proof that the culture in Scandinavia was greatly different prior to the Viking era (one could say, matriarchal and demilitarized, not much different from now ironically), and that the Viking era, was in many ways, a deviation from how Northern European people were accustomed to living. Within a period of tens of thousands of years, that period in time only accounts to a blip on the radar.

For the most part, they lived in a cold, hard climate and were required to plan the number of sustainable children, without the possibility to raid neighbouring civilizations for increased prosperity.



It's not according to me, but according to common sense. Look at the population boom after World War II, as an example. And the resulting decline, in peace-time.



In the early/middle medieval times? Not really. Only the Scandinavins were, by the Middle Ages, what I would call a Germanic warrior culture.

It is my assumption that there was a great deal more to the Germanic cultures than being "warriors", and that warfare was only emphasized during periods of time when their civilization was threatened externally (by for example, the Roman Empire or Christian invasions). Excess population growth wouldn't have been the norm, except as a response. Roman texts lend credibility to this theory. The further the Germanic civilizations resided from the crude reality of having to do battle against the Romans, the more docile their behaviour, to the point where even females would be elected as leaders, and men would walk unarmed.

It is also my belief that if the Germanic cultures are threatened today, they will also adopt a patriarchal system, which emphasizes population growth and militarism, as a response to an external threat. We saw that with the Nazis, and perhaps, we are seeing it today. The pattern has repeated itself enough times historically, to be given credibility. Once we acknowledge this, it ought to become our duty to prevent a similar chain of events from taking place in our lifetimes, to prevent triggering a primal survival instinct which halts the progression of a society, as it searches security in "true and tested" patriarchal tradition.



Fertility rates are not the best place to look at. Clear physical differences are.

You will see the greatest population growth in history as Africa is now given the means with which to grow, which it previously did not possess. This will be greatly enhanced by their particular physical attributes compared to the already great growth of the Asian and the European, which has now largely halted.

Of course, this growth can only be enabled through assistance from the European, as otherwise the African societies would collapse under this great population growth.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/jun/13/nigeria-larger-population-us-2050

The growth of the Africans, unlike the Europeans or the Asians, won't be boosted by a post-World War boom period, but rather their natural inclination. We can act blind to it, but honestly it doesn't really matter what we think of it. Nature will run its course either way, regardless of our opinions on the subject.

These are among the issues that we are going to be dealing with for the next century or so. Great mass movements of people are bound to occur as the human population grows beyond its limits.

I think you overall made some good points and i now have some research to do and something to think about. Thank you for your time.
 
Here is another debate with Rushton against Joseph Graves, an evolutionary biologist:



I've posted information about this before so there's really no need to repeat it. I didn't get any serious challenges then and don't expect to now. Rushton was basically a quack seeking a genetic basis to racist stereotypes. His research was selective and his evolutionary theories are absurd. People can check that other thread for all of my counter sources. I also uploaded the Rushton vs. Suzuki debate to my channel with more counter sources at the end.



Here is a review of his book that summarizes the general problems with Rushton's work:

Racialism and Racist Agendas


C. LORING BRACE University of Michigan Race, Evolution, and Behavior: A Life History Perspective. J. Philippe Rushton. New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers, 1995. 334 pp.

brace.jpg


Virtually every kind of anthropologist may be put in the position of being asked to comment on what is contained in this book, so, whatever our individual specialty, we should all be prepared to discuss what it represents. Race, Evolution, and Behavior is an amalgamation of bad biology and inexcusable anthropology. It is not science but advocacy, and advocacy for the promotion of "racialism." Tzvetan Todorov explains "racialism," in contrast to "racism," as belief in the existence of typological essences called "races" whose characteristics can be rated in hierarchical fashion (On Human Diversity: Nationalism, Racism, and Exoticism in French Thought, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1993, p. 31). "Racism," then, is the use of racialist assumptions to promote social or political ends, a course that Todorov regards as leading to "particularly catastrophic results." Perpetuating catastrophe is not the stated aim of Rushton's book, but current promoters of racist agendas will almost certainly regard it as a welcome weapon to apply for their noxious purposes.


The author, J. Philippe Rushton, professor of psychology at the University of Western Ontario, received his doctorate in social psychology at the London School of Economics, focusing on social learning theory. He takes evident pride in claiming to represent the continuity of the "London School" tradition founded by Sir Francis Galton, identified as a "spiritual fascist" by the late Sir Peter Medawar (Times Literary Supplement, January 24, 1975 p. 83).


I mention this here because Rushton has tried to portray those who have criticized his assumptions as being "either unable or unwilling to separate their political agendas from the scholarly pursuit of truth" (p. 256). Whether or not he identifies with Galton in his guise as "spiritual fascist" or as "dilettantish racist" and founder of the "science" of eugenics (Stocking, Race, Culture and Evolution: Essays in the History of Anthropology, New York: Free Press, 1968, p. 167), he has acknowledged the continued support of the Pioneer Fund, an organization noted for its promotion of Nazi racist propaganda in the 1930s and credited by Stefan Kuhl with continuing to provide backing for what amounts to a virtual who's who of scientific racism (The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism, New York: Oxford, 1994, p. 9). While he accuses his opponents of having political instead of scientific motives, clearly it is Rushton's position that is based on the politically secured status quo rather than on science it is his own stance, and not that of his critics, that can be characterized as a manifestation of "political correctness" (American Psychologist 50:725-726, 1995).


Rushton starts with an a priori faith in the existence of "the races," of which there are basically three: "Caucasoid," "Mongoloid," and "Negroid." His justification for this is the undocumented assertion that this is how "a team of extraterrestrial scientists" would perceive things if they should arrive on earth "to study human beings" (p. 1). No criteria are ever set up to decide how these groups are established or what traits should be used in determining membership. This means that his acceptance of "race" is ultimately arbitrary and subjective. When "the races" are compared in terms of appearance and performance in the quantities of uncritically collected data assembled in his book, "racial" identity is determined by "self-assess- ment." Rushton's basic units, then, are rooted in folk belief and not in biology. The possibility that the vast majority of the human biological traits that have been shaped by evolution are clinally and independently distributed in association with the relevant selective forces is never once considered, and the word cline is simply missing.

One running concern is how these folk categories compare on such matters as intelligence and reproductive behavior. Sex rears its head again and again in the discussion, with much of the information on comparative sexual performance based on "self-assessment." Rushton is obviously much taken with the "salience of... buttocks and breasts" (pp. 167, 231) as measures of sexuality, although there is a dearth of objectively collected data. More telling is his evident fascination with the "Negroid" penis as an index of "potency" and libido. In his earlier publications on these matters, his information came from "self-assess-ment," but he has bolstered the "conclusions" at which he had previously arrived by reference to the alleged "data" gathered by a 19th-century figure identified only as a "French Army Surgeon."

These were presented in a two-volume exercise in ethnocentric prurience (Untrodden Fields of Anthropology, Paris: Librairie de Medecine, Folklore et Anthropologie, 1898 [reprinted by Krieger, Huntington, NY, 1972]) in which the author discourses at length on the size, angle, and hardness of the erections of males from all over the world. Not a single measurement is recorded, and there is no mention of how the redoubt-able chirugien acquired all that "information." Oddly enough, although Rushton cites this source for his conviction that relative sexual potency is demonstrated by comparative penile size, this was not the opinion of the good surgeon himself. It was his view that "the testicles...are the true index of manly vigour," and that these were of relatively lesser size in "the African Negro" (1898, 2:429).


The main message of Rushton's book is that African ancestry ensures a deficiency of "intelligence, law abidingness, sexual restraint, and social organizational skills" (p. 236), and that these are all genetically fixed. There is no hint at the nature and complexity of the interactions between genetic and environmental factors that influence their course of development. Correlations of 0.16 and 0.18 between head size and IQ are claimed to be "significant" (p. 40) and therefore an indication of cause and effect. The fact that correlation does not necessarily indicate cause is never mentioned, and none of the potentially relevant developmental conditions are ever considered. The focus is entirely on genetic input with no consideration for an environmental contribution. Like so many racialists, Rushton stresses high "heritability" without ever pointing out that the statistic actually is an index of the proportion of genetic and environmental input, and that it is never a fixed quantity. A high figure indicates a highly favorable environment for the development of the trait in question.


The book clearly qualifies as "bad biology," but consider some of what is passed off as anthropology. In addition to a roster of undocumented assertions and elementary errors in fact too extensive to enumerate here, we are told that, in Africa, "biological parents do not expect to be the major providers for their children" (p. 156) and that "it is almost certain that only evolutionary (and thereby genetic) theories can explain it" (p. 264). Here Rushton has taken the r/K generalizations applied by evolutionary ecologists for between-species comparisons and applied them to pass judgment on human "races." The slightly shorter African gestation length and slightly higher rate of twinning qualifies "Negroids" as committed to the r-strategy of producing offspring in quantity without much care given to their future survival. Northern "races," in contrast, favor the K-strategy of giving more care to fewer children. None of this is based on any data derived from realized-reproduction figures, and one would never guess from it that there are more than three times as many Chinese as Africans in the world.


The background for Rushton's approach is in his assumption that the African savanna home of human origins provided an easily acquired but unpredictable subsistence (p. 231). This supposed lack of predictability meant that there were fewer rewards for thinking ahead, and, besides, African savanna-dwellers "were largely scavengers" (p. 228). Presumably such conditions led to the mindless rabbit-strategy of child production that he believes is typical of those who have continued to live in Africa. For the real hunters in the north, by contrast, life was harsher but highly predictable-conditions that favored the development of intelligence and attention to child care. Not a single study dealing with the problems of human survival either in the arctic or the tropics is cited, and these claims are nothing more than manifestations of sheer unwarranted prejudice.

Elsewhere Rushton has been quoted as saying, "I really do believe I have made a major breakthrough in understanding human evolution" (The Globe and Mail, February 4, 1989, p. A6). In fact, he has done nothing of the sort. At best, it is a recycling of an old and oft-repeated version of the kind of creation myth exemplified by the Garden of Eden story in the Judeo-Christian Bible. From the perspective of an anthropologist, the kindest thing that can be said about this is that it can be regarded as a classic manifestation of what Wiktor Stoczkowski calls "anthropologie naive," (Anthropologie savante: de 'origine de l'homme, de l'imagination et des idees regues, Paris: CNRS Editions, 1994). A less forgiving reader will recognize this as an attempt to provide a "scientific" justification for the repetition of virtually all major themes of "racial" denigration that have accumulated in the writings of the Western world since the beginning of the Renaissance. Quite evidently, it is a manifestation of blatant bigotry.
 
Lmao how Suzuki's arguments @ 34:00 start with name-calling and shaming instead of rational discussion. And then threats saying he should lose his funding and job (sounds like fascism)
 
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