Official Judo Thread

[Zankou]

Elbow down is indeed akin to ashiwaza ... it’s basically showing off your supreme technique.

But isn’t that, at a certain level, silly? It’s like beating a newb in newaza using only your feet, no hands. Yes, I can do it, and have for comic value. But you’d never do it against anybody strong, so what’s the point?

The fact of the matter is that elbow up is objectively superior for throwing uchi against tough opponents. Even if 99% of judo pedagogy denies this.

 

[QingTian]

The fact of the matter is that elbow up is objectively superior for throwing uchi against tough opponents. Even if 99% of judo pedagogy denies this.

Some may say I am a traditionalist but I just look at things holistically. It's not one of the other, but right tool for the situation. It's really the same technique to me, except one way has a closer fulcrum than the other.

It's superior in which regards? Yes elbow up gives you more opportunities to attack. No it's not physically as efficient (easily demonstrated through physics). Elbow up is essentially just using the end of the throwing arc, but in return you do not have to get as much control of uke's upper body.

Just reminiscing here, but one of the best uchimatas I ever did was on a old world champion (no brag, it was very much a gentleman's randori) where I did one step right in the middle, elbow down, and we were both surprised how clean the throw went.

 

[Kaffe]

Kaffe: Everyone who has ever won anything uses elbow up. This should tell you something.
QingTian: I once threw a wc with elbow down in a non-competitive freak occurence.
RJ: Clearly elbow up is a vibrator.
Kaffe: What is this, I don’t even.

 

[QingTian]

So do you also think seois should only be taught in drop form, or osotos done by pecking your foot from way back? Sorry guy, there is more to Judo than just a quick way to get uke on his back.

It's easy to show. What if you never learned how the basic mechanics should work, and you tried that style no-gi on a wrestler? You won't achieve contact, slip off, and Judo would look like shit. What if you tried rollover uchimata or drop seoi in BJJ? Likely you end up in a worse position than uke. How do you like to do limited damage on the street? Etc.

Ok one way is better for Judo contest rules. Did not deny that. Are we cool now?

 

[killakoy]

I love Judo mat lab's videos. I wish the judoka would make more.

On topic, when I teach, I always drill elbow down method and make everyone uchikomi this way. However, I mention that in competition, it won't be this clean. In practice, your elbow flares up in order to get uke to the position needed in order to complete the throw. Ideally, you will do it the elbow down method as QT and RJ keep saying, but if you meet someone who's on your level, it won't happen this way.

So why is elbow down method taught? Because you're drilling mechanics and muscle memory. You're practicing perfection. For perfection, you need to control the upper body. If you use elbow up method, it's a lot harder to develop that feel of loading and smoothly practicing the footwork. After all, most of uchimata uchikomi is in the rhythm of the feet.

 

[QingTian]

Mechanically speaking, the elbow flares because you are skipping tsuri komi straight to throwing down. You might do that because of grip obstruction or because uke is already bent so why lift him up again.

Similarly, people who are against uchikomi often argue that pulling up for uchikomi is useless since nobody does that in actual contest. It's the same thing here, in actual contest uke is put into position in other ways. Pulling up for uchikomi is to help you feel the right position and kuzushi by moving a static uke there, not that pulling is that only way to accomplish the positioning.

But there can be situations where the base method still applies. Therein lies the rub - it's easier to subtract components that you normally practice versus adding them back later when needed.

 

[Kaffe]

In every sport you get good at what you practice. If you do not practice the elbow up method you will not get good at the elbow up method. The mechanics are, as has been pointed out, quite different from the classical method. Furthermore, if you do not practice going through the defenses to your move, you will not be able to consistently beat said defenses.

My problem is that in most clubs, too much time is spent with regular classical uchikomi. This does not efficiently translate into skill with the elbow up, because you are not practicing the motions you would actually need for a successful elbow up uchi mata, which in execution is almost the opposite of what is being taught with the classical approach.

QingTian: You ask a good question with the drop seoi and competition o soto. With seoi you probably know that standing variations are quite common, and the situation is thus not comparable to elbow in uchi mata in any way. sometimes adjusting o soto practice to reflect reality wouldn’t hurt in my opinion.
Edit: as for throwing uchi mata no gi, I do that with a whizzer, almost perfectly emulating the elbow up uchi I use in the gi. This is also how you commonly see it done at higher levels of no gi and mma.

And I appologize for the sarcastic tone with your comment about throwing a wc. That’s awesome, it really is. I intended to summarize my annoyance with RJ’s analogy, which funnily enough would indirectly indicate that he likely does not please women with his dick very often (did I just write that?)

Once again, I don’t want to beat a dead horse. It is what it is, and nobody’s mind will be changed. Sorry for the sour grapes.

 

[QingTian]

I don't think we disagree much, in practice. I just don't think we should throw things out wholesale, just like how your old coach was wrong to insist on classic always. It's just important to understand the reasons for doing things some way. IMO once you do, it doesn't take much reps at all.

 

[Kaffe]

I may be a bit influenced and radicalized by feeling straightjacketed in the past, combined with sometimes feeling that my efforts working on the elbow up get shat on as not being real judo. When you put your heart and soul into something it is easy to get touchy about it, I guess.

 

[QingTian]

Actually reading this over again I am pleased about this discussion, because it shows how much depth is available online. I just noticed my account here was created over 15 years ago. Back then, and I'm sure many others here will concur, there was a LOT of disinformation in Judo not just online but in actual dojo. I hope Judo materials can improve to BJJ levels so that there is a high standard everywhere, and people don't have to spend years in suckatude before they can throw.

 

[RJ Green]

Actually reading this over again I am pleased about this discussion, because it shows how much depth is available online. I just noticed my account here was created over 15 years ago. Back then, and I'm sure many others here will concur, there was a LOT of disinformation in Judo not just online but in actual dojo. I hope Judo materials can improve to BJJ levels so that there is a high standard everywhere, and people don't have to spend years in suckatude before they can throw.

I for one believe our pedantry has changed the world! Thank you for arguing on the internet with me

 

[QingTian]

I for one believe our pedantry has changed the world! Thank you for arguing on the internet with me

You used to mock me for my pedantry. How times have changed! Every like from you is now a feather in my cap

 

[RJ Green]

just needed to grow up a bit and learn how to process my emotions in a healthy way. stages of grief over the leg grab ban and realizing how trash the rest of my judo was.

 

[Kbits]

Joichi's Kosen Judo in Quebec. Beautiful; listen to the interview or skip ahead to the action.

 

[ArtemV]

I forgot how fun the tai-otoshi is. Easily one of my top 5 throws to perform and watch. Luckily I am pretty good at it, and will try it out in competition soon enough

 

[RJ Green]

same-side grip has even more whip on it

 

[Thrawn33]

We'll boys guess who's decided to compete again (masters of course, I'm 37 not stupid)

Been not training the past month due to govt shutdown, but back on the mat Monday.

Tournament in one month. Currently 202lbs, deciding not to cut to 178 (old weight) since it's a local comp and masters division so you never know what kind of pools they'll throw together.

Monday I'm hitting a proper diet and getting back into a good exercise routine. Mods permitting I'll make this my thread he to my training log.

3.75 miles jogged today just to get blood moving again

 

[RJ Green]

how's your range of motion and balance?

 

[The Thrill]

sweet, wheres the comp?

not much going on in the midwest

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Does anyone have experience or contacts training in Sheffield? I'll be over there later in the year.