NCAA Wrestling... Why the Hate?

[knoxpk]

Not from the forum, obviously..

But in General?

My understanding is that as far as sports go, its pretty cheap. Edinborough spent around 500K to field a top 10 team I believe last year. Includes the scholarships if I am not mistaken..

I cant believe its all title 9.. Is it?

Women's wrestling seems to be getting more exposure.

I went off a little today, becasue I saw that Florida has 3 teams in the top 50 and ZERO Div 1 wrestling schools.

In fact, I don't believe there is an actual "non club" wrestling school at all in Florida.

With Grappling, BJJ and MMA seemingly doing pretty well, what is it about wrestling that holds them back?

Most coaches I know would be pretty happy to have an influx of wrestlers join their gym/teams..

I just dont get it...

Anyway, here is my other rant.. LOL.. I ranted to you guys enough already..

http://thebodyfollows.com/sports-and-martial-arts/ncaa-division-1-wrestling-florida-rant/

 

[MadSquabbles500]

Its not hate, it just disinterest. MMA and BJJ are competitors to wrestling, especially MMA. The larger MMA becomes, the more depth it will gain, and that will draw even more people to MMA.

 

[efficientjudo]

BJJ and MMA are adult sports, the beginners are usually adults - my understanding of the US system is that is basically encourages the pursuit of a sport from a young age and pretty much have to give it up once you leave college (due to few avenues to continue) - you would need be targeting parents to encourage their child to wrestle.

How many people start wrestling in college without ever having done it previously?
What opportunities are their to continue wrestling after college?

I think one of the reasons for wrestling dominance in MMA is that US are spitting out a cohort of experienced young wrestlers each year with few opportunities to continue to practice the sport they've trained for much of their life.

 

[Uchi Mata]

No one hates wrestling, it just doesn't have a professional structure as it's not spectator friendly and it doesn't really have a strong club structure as it's mostly a scholastic sport in the US so no one does it after they age out of their school programs. People are indifferent to it.

 

[Dirty Holt]

It garners little accolades for athletic directors, so they dont see the value in having to work harder to get no personal gain.

Wrestling is growing at the non D1 level pretty well.

 

[beat...people...up?]

There isn't football money in it, basically.* There are people trying to rehabilitate the excitement of it, but I think the multiple mat structure of most tournaments, and the LENGTH of most tournaments, makes it kind of like track (another sport that is not particularly sexy)... just too much waiting around.

I do think there could be a way to rehabilitate it--growing women's programs will surely help, though the structure of Title IX makes it unfortunately true that even if women's wrestling grows, men's wrestling may not get the funding it needs. I believe right now the standard scholarship availability for D1 schools just barely covers 10 wrestlers, so it's mostly partial scholarships if you want to fill out a team, and that's just rough.

I also think it's a PR issue and an education issue. Most people simply don't understand the scoring system. They keep tinkering with it, like changing the points you get for takedowns, push-outs, etc., and that's well-intentioned but is creating some chaos.

(*Side note: the injury rates from wrestling are nearly as high as they are for football, far and away the top two for injuries in college sports afaik; high injury rates can prevent people from continuing the sport at a college level).

 

[dsdoubled]

I think it is in fact title IX that hurt wrestling severely. Look at how many division I wrestling programs have been killed in the last 15 years, its a ton. I believe MMA's popularity is helping wrestling significantly by getting more people interested in it. The much less restrictive rule set of MMA has allowed people to see what a wrestler is capable of athletically and combatively, so people look into a fighter's background and see articles and videos about their wrestling careers. This has increased interest and web traffic but the other problem is, it usually stops there. There aren't enough ways for new fans to consume wrestling at the highest levels in a way that puts money back into the sport. You could spend a few buck on a Flo account, follow USA wrestling and your favorite wrestlers on social media, watch some dual meets on TV, but nothing like a PPV model or a network TV deal that really drives revenue and interest.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I think it is in fact title IX that hurt wrestling severely. Look at how many division I wrestling programs have been killed in the last 15 years, its a ton. I believe MMA's popularity is helping wrestling significantly by getting more people interested in it. The much less restrictive rule set of MMA has allowed people to see what a wrestler is capable of athletically and combatively, so people look into a fighter's background and see articles and videos about their wrestling careers. This has increased interest and web traffic but the other problem is, it usually stops there. There aren't enough ways for new fans to consume wrestling at the highest levels in a way that puts money back into the sport. You could spend a few buck on a Flo account, follow USA wrestling and your favorite wrestlers on social media, watch some dual meets on TV, but nothing like a PPV model or a network TV deal that really drives revenue and interest.

As MMA grows further to when it becomes a bonafide sport, it will eventually take the place of wrestling and BJJ. They will come up with format for people to start earlier. Now there will be a point in the early development in MMA that will cause a spike in wrestling, and other arts. At that point MMA has to pull its athletes from elsewhere. I believe that time has either passed or is going on right now.

 

[efficientjudo]

As MMA grows further to when it becomes a bonafide sport, it will eventually take the place of wrestling and BJJ.

I really don't think so - if you walk into any BJJ club, you will find loads hobbyists that will never be interested in MMA. I've had BJJ practitioners try Judo class then say they're not interested in getting thrown, so they definitely won't be interested in getting punched / kicked. Add those that work customer facing jobs and can't afford to have a black eye.

 

[mcgoatp4p#1]

I find wrestling more entertaining than most bjj matches. Theres something cool about watching people perform techniques that are thousands of years old through pure grit. It's primal and alpha as fuck

 

[dsdoubled]

As MMA grows further to when it becomes a bonafide sport, it will eventually take the place of wrestling and BJJ. They will come up with format for people to start earlier. Now there will be a point in the early development in MMA that will cause a spike in wrestling, and other arts. At that point MMA has to pull its athletes from elsewhere. I believe that time has either passed or is going on right now.

I don think so mainly bc parents will be way less likely to put their kids in MMA. Things like wrestling and karate are much more parent friendly. Wrestling is perfect bc it doesn't have strikes or submissions, its the perfect entry level combat sport. And the culture and history of karate probably makes it the 2nd most parent friendly sport.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

I really don't think so - if you walk into any BJJ club, you will find loads hobbyists that will never be interested in MMA. I've had BJJ practitioners try Judo class then say they're not interested in getting thrown, so they definitely won't be interested in getting punched / kicked. Add those that work customer facing jobs and can't afford to have a black eye.

I don think so mainly bc parents will be way less likely to put their kids in MMA. Things like wrestling and karate are much more parent friendly. Wrestling is perfect bc it doesn't have strikes or submissions, its the perfect entry level combat sport. And the culture and history of karate probably makes it the 2nd most parent friendly sport.

I am thinking as MMA grows, some watered down version, to make it kid, and hobbyist friendly will develop. And as students progress the schools can add more and higher levels of danger to it.

In wrestling, and BJJ as it is, there is a large chunk of students/practitioners (not all), who enjoy the arts/sports because they see it as simulating aspects of real live combat. If there comes along another format that simulates more aspects, then that good chunk of students will likely gravitate towards that format. And that will shrink the pool for wrestling and BJJ further.

Daido Juku with its space helmet is probably the closest right now. No chance of getting a black eye. Or even a combat sambo, but with ITF TKD style head strikes, or Shotokan style head strikes, and of course chest protectors for full power body strikes.

 

[dsdoubled]

I am thinking as MMA grows, some watered down version, to make it kid, and hobbyist friendly will develop. And as students progress the schools can add more and higher levels of danger to it.

In wrestling, and BJJ as it is, there is a large chunk of students/practitioners (not all), who enjoy the arts/sports because they see it as simulating aspects of real live combat. If there comes along another format that simulates more aspects, then that good chunk of students will likely gravitate towards that format. And that will shrink the pool for wrestling and BJJ further.

Daido Juku with its space helmet is probably the closest right now. No chance of getting a black eye. Or even a combat sambo, but with ITF TKD style head strikes, or Shotokan style head strikes, and of course chest protectors for full power body strikes.

Well, they do have pankration already in place. Aaron Pico grew up doing it. And they scale its violence depending on the level of the student. That's another reason I'm skeptical. Things like pankration, San shou/San da, amateur MMA, etc are already out there and in relative obscurity. It could be that none of them have been executed properly or just that the idea itself is not catching on. I suppose time will tell. Years ago way before MMA was legalized in NY there were multiple outfits that introduced watered down MMA style combat and they just never picked up steam.

 

[RemyR]

From a wrestler’s perspective:

It’s not exactly a spectator sport. It’s like BJJ or sub grappling in that you really have to have some experience in it to really appreciate it.

Also, it’s tough as shit so people don’t want to have experience in it and would rather do easier stuff like basketball.

And as others mentioned title 9 really fucking gutted it for lots of schools.

 

[Judge]

I think it is in fact title IX that hurt wrestling severely. Look at how many division I wrestling programs have been killed in the last 15 years, its a ton. I believe MMA's popularity is helping wrestling significantly by getting more people interested in it. The much less restrictive rule set of MMA has allowed people to see what a wrestler is capable of athletically and combatively, so people look into a fighter's background and see articles and videos about their wrestling careers. This has increased interest and web traffic but the other problem is, it usually stops there. There aren't enough ways for new fans to consume wrestling at the highest levels in a way that puts money back into the sport. You could spend a few buck on a Flo account, follow USA wrestling and your favorite wrestlers on social media, watch some dual meets on TV, but nothing like a PPV model or a network TV deal that really drives revenue and interest.

Fucking commie ass Obama.

 

[dsdoubled]

It garners little accolades for athletic directors, so they dont see the value in having to work harder to get no personal gain.

Wrestling is growing at the non D1 level pretty well.

It's still not even close to on par with participation from DI wrestlers, but I am noticing more non DI wrestlers trying their hand in post-collegiate wrestling. Maybe this is a result of your what you're talking about.

 

[Fluffernutter]

How much of Title IX is a reason vs. how much Title IX is an excuse?

For instance, when Oregon cut wrestling, they blamed Title IX.

A local journalist did the math. He showed that the numbers worked out that U of O could keep wrestling and still add another men's sport and STILL be within Title IX compliance.

Boise as well.

If I remember correctly, a decade ago when Arizona State was cut, the conversation went like this:


Administration: Due to Title IX, we have to cut wrestling.
Wrestling fans: Huh?
Administration: You want the team back, we want $$,$$$,$$$
Wealthy Wrestling Fan: Here's a lot of money. Enough to support wrestling and a woman's program.
Administration: Thanks! Here's wrestling!


Likewise, Norwich was going to cut their team...then money came in from donations...and suddenly it was saved.


Are teams really being cut or are they being held hostage in the hopes that a bunch of money comes in from a guy that owns a few car dealerships?


I know the wounds are still fresh with the Eastern Michigan University cutting wrestling (as well as three other sports - two of them women's sports), but in each of the photographs of the wrestling team in action, there were no fans in the stands watching the wrestling matches.

I think we are at a point where it is not just the cynical people out there that think that college sports is not about education, but about money. If your team isn't bringing in money, the athletic department will cut it. Unfortunately, it will be stated that it was cut due to Title IX, even if that statement is not true. The reality is that $500,000 saved is probably going to head oevr to the football budget anyway. After all, you need to afford that new scoreboard.

 

[Tirofijo2001]

I went off a little today, becasue I saw that Florida has 3 teams in the top 50 and ZERO Div 1 wrestling schools.

You are ignoring or unaware of the impact of geography on the popularity of wrestling.

For one, wrestling has never been big in the South. I grew up in the Deep South, and I doubt there's a wrestling team at any high school in my entire state. (We also didn't play lacrosse, but the yuppie kids are trying to import it.)

Florida D1 schools are either SEC, ACC or want to be in the SEC. (Missouri is the only SEC school with a wrestling program, and we know that Missouri is a newcomer to the SEC and is there for the football. It's a midwest state, not a southern state.) ACC has a little more wrestling history, but not much more.

Wrestling at the collegiate level in the South will never be a revenue producing sport. So without the alumni taking an interest (and why would they be interested if they didn't grow up wrestling?), and it only being a drain on resources, why would the school bother to field a wrestling team?

Title IX isn't helping either. My alma mater has a scholarship female soccer and volleyball teams but no scholarship male soccer or volleyball teams to help offset all the scholarships given to the football team.

 

[voodoo chile1]

the numerous stalling calls drives me crazy. let the fuckers wrestle. dude hangs onto a leg for more than 5 seconds and they get a stalling call. that is fucked up!

 

[yetanother]

amateur MMA

Amateur MMA is fairly popular in our country. There is a lot of KOs in it.
You have same day weight ins (and shin pads and you can't heel hook or ground and pound is lower skill division) but you still fight roided out people trying to kill you in a tournament.