International [NATO News] What Sweden brings to NATO as its Newest Member

Considering how big canada is they should spend at least 2.6...

Spending should increase sharply soon as we have to replace our geriatric fleet of fighter jets. Of course, this should have been well underway by now, but nobody in Canadian government seems competent enough to handle the process in a timely manner. The whole thing could get upended in 2019 with a possible (read, probable) change of government.
 
German Foreign Legion?:)

May be the Bundeswehr could offer Eastern Europeans what the U.S Navy did for young Filipinos: Better life, better pay, a quick path to Citizenship, and an unrivaled sense of pride in the service.

Then again, over 100,000 Filipinos competed fiercely for the 400 available slots each year in the U.S Navy because the mighty Pacific Fleet actually floats and fully functional, while German troops are using broomsticks to simulate machine guns. Not exactly an inspiring state to recruit the best foreign troops, I'm afraid.
 
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Spending should increase sharply soon as we have to replace our geriatric fleet of fighter jets. Of course, this should have been well underway by now, but nobody in Canadian government seems competent enough to handle the process in a timely manner. The whole thing could get upended in 2019 with a possible (read, probable) change of government.


Hell your also a 2 ocean navy, which your budget should even be higher to support a carrier as well.
 
Hell your also a 2 ocean navy, which your budget should even be higher to support a carrier as well.

*3 ocean. The last high profile addition to our Navy that I remember was our purchase of used submarines from the UK for 750 million. We got what we paid for: billions in maintenance fees, limited participation in NATO exercises, and a dead sailor due to an on board electrical fire.

Interestingly enough, in the 80's we had a project for a dozen nuclear submarines which was scrapped almost as soon as it was introduced. The Americans apparently were able to block our purchase of submarine nuclear reactors from the U.K. and France, and the U.S. wouldn't sell us the reactors. This apparently had something to do with the balance of power in the Warsaw pact. Go figure.

Since well before I was born Canada has axed, delayed, and generally botched military procurement contracts. The chances of them agreeing to build or purchase a carrier, carrier capable planes, and having them delivered is....remote, to say the least. It's fine for the average Mike from Canmore to think that the U.S. will always have our back and it doesn't matter that we're unable to defend our arctic territory from Russia. But our politicians seem to have believed that for as long as I've been paying attention. It's just foolish.

I was looking at it today, and it seems like by the time Canada is ready to pull the trigger on the fighter jet replacements, the last wrinkles in the F-35 should be completely sorted out. The contract wont be awarded until 2021 at the earliest.
 
*3 ocean. The last high profile addition to our Navy that I remember was our purchase of used submarines from the UK for 750 million. We got what we paid for: billions in maintenance fees, limited participation in NATO exercises, and a dead sailor due to an on board electrical fire.

Interestingly enough, in the 80's we had a project for a dozen nuclear submarines which was scrapped almost as soon as it was introduced. The Americans apparently were able to block our purchase of submarine nuclear reactors from the U.K. and France, and the U.S. wouldn't sell us the reactors. This apparently had something to do with the balance of power in the Warsaw pact. Go figure.

Since well before I was born Canada has axed, delayed, and generally botched military procurement contracts. The chances of them agreeing to build or purchase a carrier, carrier capable planes, and having them delivered is....remote, to say the least. It's fine for the average Mike from Canmore to think that the U.S. will always have our back and it doesn't matter that we're unable to defend our arctic territory from Russia. But our politicians seem to have believed that for as long as I've been paying attention. It's just foolish.

I was looking at it today, and it seems like by the time Canada is ready to pull the trigger on the fighter jet replacements, the last wrinkles in the F-35 should be completely sorted out. The contract wont be awarded until 2021 at the earliest.


You know if you didnt pull out of the F-35 program yall would have had a good number of them already. But since turdo fucked that up, the process for canada getting a new jet gonna be longer. Buying new jets isnt enough, Canadian military needs a massive rebuild from the ground up.
 
You know if you didnt pull out of the F-35 program yall would have had a good number of them already. But since turdo fucked that up, the process for canada getting a new jet gonna be longer. Buying new jets isnt enough, Canadian military needs a massive rebuild from the ground up.

Canada has actually continued their industrial membership payments to the JSF program. If it turns out that we do want to purchase them (read: they're actually fully combat ready and cost controlled and have a functioning replacement parts supply line) we can deal directly with LM. We just haven't bought any jets yet, which seems to have been the correct decision.

You're completely correct about the rebuild, though. Things will start sinking/falling out of the sky if we don't procure new hardware. I'm not chuffed about our frigate process, either. The FREMM, for some stupid reason, was rejected out of hand. Know who hasn't rejected it out of hand? The fucking U.S. Navy.
 
I'm not getting combative with anyone. You think so because I'm being forced to repeat the same thing over and over again by people pretending they don't get what I mean.
Just say what you mean already. Stop beating around the bugs.
 
You're completely correct about the rebuild, though. Things will start sinking/falling out of the sky if we don't procure new hardware. I'm not chuffed about our frigate process, either. The FREMM, for some stupid reason, was rejected out of hand. Know who hasn't rejected it out of hand? The fucking U.S. Navy.

FREMM was rejected because naval group/fincantieri submitted an unsolicited RFP outside of the formal procurement process. type 26 is the best platform for us, as it is for the aussies, brits and possibly even the yanks as well!
 
FREMM was rejected because naval group/fincantieri submitted an unsolicited RFP outside of the formal procurement process.

Oh who cares. Just hear them out.

type 26 is the best platform for us, as it is for the aussies, brits and possibly even the yanks as well!

Except, for now, it's just a paper boat. With a big chunk of our navy already being decomissioned without replacement, what are the chances that BAE delivers the full 15 without further exacerbating the capability gap? Meanwhile Naval Group/Ficantieri can deliver ships starting next year.
 
Oh who cares. Just hear them out.



Except, for now, it's just a paper boat. With a big chunk of our navy already being decomissioned without replacement, what are the chances that BAE delivers the full 15 without further exacerbating the capability gap? Meanwhile Naval Group/Ficantieri can deliver ships starting next year.

there'd have been an industry-wide mutiny if the bid had been evaluated, let alone accepted

bear in mind the overarching raison d'etre of the NSPS / NSS was not to give franco-italian shipyards work. even the idea of building the first three hulls overseas would be political suicide for the party in power

BAE also doesn't have to worry about delivery, that's ISI's bailiwick. BAE is 'merely' the warship designer in this case.

the only 'capability' we lost with the retirement of the 280s is area air defence, the 330s are fresh out of modernization and ready to carry the load for the forseeable future. need bloody tankers more than anything!
 
there'd have been an industry-wide mutiny if the bid had been evaluated, let alone accepted

bear in mind the overarching raison d'etre of the NSPS / NSS was not to give franco-italian shipyards work. even the idea of building the first three hulls overseas would be political suicide for the party in power

BAE also doesn't have to worry about delivery, that's ISI's bailiwick. BAE is 'merely' the warship designer in this case.

the only 'capability' we lost with the retirement of the 280s is area air defence, the 330s are fresh out of modernization and ready to carry the load for the forseeable future. need bloody tankers more than anything!

Oh, I thought the type 26 was going to be built in Glasgow. If it's built in Halifax I have less of a problem with it.
 
Oh, I thought the type 26 was going to be built in Glasgow. If it's built in Halifax I have less of a problem with it.

for the RN, yup

hopefully the halifax builds will compare to the clyde & australian builds when it's all said & done
 
Germany's military is thinking about asking foreigners to join
Christopher Woody | Aug. 1, 2018

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Chancellor Angela Merkel meets members of the Bundeswehr at an army barracks in Leer, Ostfriesland, Germany, December 7, 2015.


The German military, the Bundeswehr, had 21,000 unfilled positions in 2017, and the service is now looking beyond its borders to fill its ranks.

A Defense Ministry report in late 2016 proposed recruiting from other EU countries, and the ministry confirmed in late July that it was seriously considering doing so.

"The Bundeswehr is growing," a ministry spokesman told news agency DPA. "For this, we need qualified personnel."

Germany's military has shrunk since the Cold War. In 2011, the country ended mandatory military service. From a high of of 585,000 troops in the mid-1980s, the service's numbers have fallen to just under 179,000 in mid-2018.

About half of current members of the German military are expected to retire by 2030, and with an aging population, finding native-born replacements may get tougher.

German leaders have pushed to add more troops while beefing up defense spending.

In mid-2016, Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen said she would remove the cap of 185,000 total troops to help make the force more flexible. She said the military would look to add 14,300 soldiers over seven years. (In early 2017, the Defense Ministry upped that to 20,000 soldiers added by 2024.)

"The Bundeswehr is under pressure to modernize in all areas," she said at the time. "We have to get away from the process of permanent shrinking."

Efforts to grow have included more recruitment of minors — a record-high 2,128 people under 18 joined as volunteers in 2017, but signing up young Germans has been criticized.

Recruiting foreigners was generally supported by the governing parties, with some qualifiers.

Karl-Heinz Brunner, a defense expert and member of the Social Democrat Party, said foreigners who join up should be promised citizenship.

"If citizens of other countries are accepted, without the promise of getting a German passport, the Bundeswehr risks becoming a mercenary army," he told German newspaper Augsburger Allegemeine.

Florian Hahn, a defense spokesman for the Christian Democratic Union, said such a recruitment model "could be developed," but "a certain level of trust with every soldier must be guaranteed."

'Germany just doesn't feel threatened'

Personnel woes are only part of the Bundeswehr's problem.

Reports have emerged in recent years of shortages of everything from body armor to tanks. German troops overseas have been hamstrung by damaged or malfunctioning equipment. A lack of spare parts has left some weapons systems unusable.

Reports of inoperable fighter jets — and insufficient training for pilots — have raised questions about whether Germany can fulfill its NATO responsibilities. As of late 2017, all of Germany's submarines were out of service, and the navy in general has struggled to build ships and develop a strategy.

Gen. Volker Wieker, the military's inspector general, said in February that the force would be ready to assume command of NATO's Very High Readiness Joint Task Force in Eastern Europe in 2019.

The Bundeswehr had a long-term plan to address "still unsatisfactory" gaps in its capabilities, Wieker said, but it would take at least a decade to recover after years of dwindling defense spending.

Defense spending is a contentious issue in Germany — one supercharged by President Donald Trump's attacks on NATO members for what he sees as failures to meet the 2%-of-GDP defense-spending level they agreed to reach by 2024.

Governing-coalition members have feuded over how to raise defense expenditures. Those in favor of a quick increase say it's needed to fix the military. Others want the money directed elsewhere and have said Chancellor Angela Merkel is doing Trump's militarist bidding.

"What we've seen in the last few years — really the sort of tragic and kind of embarrassing stories about the state of the Bundeswehr — that is certainly sinking in, and Germans are now supporting more defense spending than they have in the past," Sophia Besch, a research fellow at the Center for European Reform, said on a recent edition of the Center for a New American Security's Brussels Sprouts podcast.

"There is just this huge debate ... around the 2% [of GDP defense-spending level] being the right way of going about it," Besch added.

Some Germans also remain chastened by World War II and the Cold War, which devastated and then divided the country. The Bundeswehr still struggles with its Nazi history.

"There's a definitely a generational aspect to this," Besch said. "The sort of traditional pacifist approach ... I think is mostly permanent in the older generations."

Others just aren't that worried.

"I think the issue today is that Germany just doesn't feel threatened. Germans just don't see a threat to themselves," Besch added. "They see perhaps a threat in the East, but their relationship with Russia is complex. They just don't see the need to invest that much in defense spending."

https://www.businessinsider.com/ger...-foreigners-amid-trump-russia-tensions-2018-8

Nothing new here.

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The US is the hegemon and is projecting its power all over the world. It is basically paying the imperial premium.

Greece has a ridiculously expensive military given that the country is broke.

Estonia and Poland fear Russia.

Sure, Trump can revoke security guarantees for European NATO countries. And sure, that will increase military spending there. Only it will also be the end of NATO and the American empire.

Good.

It's unsustainable.
 
Why are Greece spending so much? Historic fear of the turks and nationalistic nature? Turkey's not gonna attack Greece, nor anyone else.

Are you kidding?

Greece neighbors their historical enemies Turkey ... wars that go far back as the Byzantine empire.

Turkey, even today also have a huge militarily personnel
 
Are you kidding?

Greece neighbors their historical enemies Turkey ... wars that go far back as the Byzantine empire.

Turkey, even today also have a huge militarily personnel

An old family friend served with the Special Forces back in WWII. At one point, he was attached to the Greek Resistance. This guy had fought in North Africa and Europe, but said the Greeks were the most vicious bastards he ever worked with. He saw one German soldier shoot himself rather than be taken alive by the Greeks:eek:
 
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