NASA proved physics-defying Electromagnetic Drive works - China claims they're testing it in orbit

EmDrive: China claims success with this 'reactionless' engine for space travel
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer
December 19, 2016

Tiangong2_web_1024.jpg

Tiangong 2, launched in September 2016, will demonstrate long term orbital missions for Chinese taikonauts, and test technologies like cold atomic clocks and quantum communications.
It may also be the host vehicle for the CAST EmDrive demonstrator.


It's a piece of space tech that sounds almost too good to be true. The "reactionless" Electromagnetic Drive, or EmDrive for short, is an engine propelled solely by electromagnetic radiation confined in a microwave cavity. Such an engine would violate the law of conservation of momentum by generating mechanical action without exchanging matter. But since 2010, both the United States and China have been pouring serious resources into these seemingly impossible engines. And now China claims its made a key breakthrough.

Dr. Chen Yue, Director of Commercial Satellite Technology for the China Academy of Space Technology (CAST) announced on December 10, 2016 that not only has China successfully tested EmDrives technology in its laboratories, but that a proof-of-concept is currently undergoing zero-g testing in orbit (according to the International Business Times, this test is taking place on the Tiangong 2 space station).

Unlike traditional engines (such as combustion and ion engines) that expel mass from the system to produce thrust, reactionless engines like the EmDrive use only electricity to generate movement. In the EmDrive, first proposed by Roger Shawyer, the microwave cavity is an asymmetric container, such as a truncated cone, with one end much larger than the other. At the narrower end, a source of electromagnetic energy (such as a magnetron) bombards the cavity with microwaves. These waves are contained and bounce off the cavity's walls, creating electromagnetic resonance. Due to the imbalanced resonance from the complex geometry of a truncated cone, the electromagnetic field in the EmDrive becomes directionally dependent (anisotropic). In this case, the anisotropic electromagnetic field 'pushes' the EmDrive away from the direction of the cavity's larger area end.

While an EmDrive may have a low impulse, the lack of gravity and friction in deep space allows it to accelerate to a high speed with enough time, even starting from a low power level. The performance of the engine depends on the material of the cavity (to reduce EM loss from absorption by the cavity walls) and temperature, which can impact the electromagnetic field, suggesting that future EmDrives made from superconducting materials would have high performance. The spaceship or satellite must also be designed from the ground up to maximize the operating efficiency of the EM drive. Of note, EM drives could also be vulnerable to the vagaries of space weather like radiation, hence the importance of testing the EmDrive proof of concept on the Tiangong 2.

EmDrives are ideal for deep space exploration, since they remove the need for refueling—or even the weight and space needed to store fuel—thus simplifying logistics and design. In theory, all one would need for an EmDrive would be a power source, like solar energy or a reactor, to fuel anything ranging from a manned Martian mission to robotic probes going outside of the solar system. EmDrives would also result in smaller and more efficient satellites, since they could ditch space-consuming chemical thrusters used for maneuvering.

The applications of such a system (if it actually proves workable) are many. If China is able to install EmDrives on its satellites for orbital maneuvering and altitude control, they would become cheaper and longer lasting. Li Feng, lead CAST designer for commercial satellites, states that the current EmDrive has only a thrust of single digit millinewtons, for orbital adjustment; a medium sized satellite needs 0.1-1 Newtons. A functional EmDrive would also open up new possibilities for long range Chinese interplanetary probes beyond the Asteroid belt, as well freeing up the mass taken up by fuel in manned spacecraft for other supplies and equipment to build lunar and Martian bases. On the military side of things, EmDrives could also be used to create stealthier, longer lasting Chinese surveillance satellites.

http://www.popsci.com/emdrive-engine-space-travel-china-success
 
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Whatever.

We would already have manned bases in the outer solar system if they didn't cancel the Orion Project. We can't even launch a man into orbit now. NASA is incompetent. China is the future of space travel, I think.
 
Anything that can sustain thrust indefinitely has just under the speed of light as a max speed, as I understand it.

Slowing down would take the same amount of time it takes to reach max speed though.

I'm not the physicist here, but that doesn't read right. You can obviously have thrust (forward force) countered by a backward force to keep your velocity constant but your acceleration at zero. On the relativity level, the greater your mass the greater the force that's required for you to approach the speed of light to the end that anything attempting to go the speed of light would have to provide an infinite amount of force.
 
It is expelling. It is expelling energy. Think of those old washing machine. When it is washing, it is vibrating so hard that it is moving forward.
MP1N9d.gif


These washing machines are not expelling anything. The concept is the same. You have things rotating inside, in the case of the EmDrive it is microwaves.
 
http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/pdf/10.2514/1.B36120

More excited about Cannae Inc announcement that they are using it for a LEO satellite this year.

FYI, every single person ive talked to in my field is absolutely skeptical about China's claim. Odds are they are using it as an excuses as why their station build is so behind schedule.
 
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It is expelling. It is expelling energy. Think of those old washing machine. When it is washing, it is vibrating so hard that it is moving forward.
MP1N9d.gif


These washing machines are not expelling anything. The concept is the same. You have things rotating inside, in the case of the EmDrive it is microwaves.

Not a bad analogy at all and I see the similarities, but the difference is the suspended in a vacuum part. Take that washing machine and suspend it and it will go nowhere. It may shake around, but will have a net movement and thrust of 0.

Inside that washing machine are two counteracting forces. The one pushing forward is also at an up angle taking some weight of the legs as it jerks forward. Therefore the one pushing back is at a down angle. This force is being transferred to the legs and not overcoming the friction of the weight of the machine to the base to the ground is all. So it pushes back, doesn't move as its stuck, and jerks forward freeing itself, then pushes back and then forward through the cycle
 
Not a bad analogy at all and I see the similarities, but the difference is the suspended in a vacuum part. Take that washing machine and suspend it and it will go nowhere. It may shake around, but will have a net movement and thrust of 0.

Inside that washing machine are two counteracting forces. The one pushing forward is also at an up angle taking some weight of the legs as it jerks forward. Therefore the one pushing back is at a down angle. This force is being transferred to the legs and not overcoming the friction of the weight of the machine to the base to the ground is all. So it pushes back, doesn't move as its stuck, and jerks forward freeing itself, then pushes back and then forward through the cycle
I think that's where the shape comes into play and how they emit the microwaves. I have no idea how it works but that analogy just gives you an idea. When I have time, I'll go read more on it and hopefully make some sense.
 
I kind of wonder how many people are missing the lead here. The story isn't really the engine, as much as the fact that it works at all.

Kind of a revolutionary discovery here.


"The Eagleworks team that tested the EmDrive thinks the microwave photons push against “quantum vacuum virtual plasma,” or a roiling sea of particles that flit in and out of existence at the quantum level."

Kind of a big deal.
 
China Claims To Have Built A Version Of NASA’s ‘Impossible Engine’ That Uses NO Fuel



The USSR-USA space race might be history, but China has confirmed that NASA still has some serious competition as it may have successfully created its own version of the mysterious ‘Impossible Engine’ known as the EM Drive.

Deemed ‘impossible’ because in order for it to work it breaks the laws of physics - and basically all conventional understanding of how the universe works - the American space agency has so far been baffled by the technology and left unable to develop a working prototype.

Now a video released by China’s Central Television state broadcaster (CCTV) claims that scientists at China Academy of Space Technology have done it.

According to the news clip, not only have Dr Chen Yue and his team, managed to conceptualise their own version, they’ve also created a fully-functioning model that is ready to go.

Although there has yet to be any official announcement from the Chinese government.

There have also been no further details about when they plan to put it into space, or any technical examination of what they have produced in the laboratory.

According to IBTimes, Beijing has been funding research into EM engines since 2010, and even credits itself with being the only people in the scientific community to take British engineer Roger Shawyer seriously when he first suggested it in 2001.

The furthest NASA have managed to get was in 2016 when they published their first evidence that an electromagnetic propulsion system could theoretically power spacecraft, in a peer-reviewed journal.

According to the team they were able to use the EmDrive to produce around 1.2 millinewtons per kilowatt of thrust in a vacuum.

Although this didn’t prove they were any closer to achieving what China claims to have done, it was a milestone moment for the technology.

If scientists were able to develop an EM Drive thruster, they believe that it could be instrumental in taking humans to Mars, as it would shorten the journey time to only 10 weeks, and doesn’t require fuel to function.

But this is also where many of the issues arise.

The EmDrive has no propellant and no exhaust and so completely goes against our understanding of how thrust works.

Instead it supposedly works by bouncing electromagnetic waves around its interior, creating photons which then in turn produce thrust.

The problem with this design is that it fundamentally shouldn’t work. Newton’s third law of motion demands that every object in the universe suffers from cause and effect. So for every action there is a reaction.

Understandably this has led to many showing a not unwarranted amount of skepticism and a continued debate about whether EM engines will ever work.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...mars-in-ten-weeks_uk_59b8efb9e4b0edff971798cf
 
Anything that can sustain thrust indefinitely has just under the speed of light as a max speed, as I understand it.

Slowing down would take the same amount of time it takes to reach max speed though.

Its not that simple. The mechanism that this thing uses to generate thrust isnt known. If it is a pilot wave effect like suggested, then its max speed would be much lower than light speed. The Bohmian density is analogous to a fluid, and hence has a compressability factor and viscosity associated with it. That would weigh in to how well you can push off it.
 
I'm taking my boy Newton's side on this. Fuck these phonies!
 
I seriously want to see these scientists claiming that this drives violates laws of physics. no propellant? it expels nothing? it expels EM waves. since when photons have no energy and momentum?
 
Can it power a spaceship to blast off from the surface of the moon or Mars?
 
Anything that can sustain thrust indefinitely has just under the speed of light as a max speed, as I understand it.

Slowing down would take the same amount of time it takes to reach max speed though.

how fast can we make something and keep it together structurally? It seems like we don't have the materials to keep anything intact that is going that fast
 
This makes me question everything I have done in my life. Imagine if I could have harnessed that energy in my bowels.
 
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