My Experience with both Gracie Combatives and Sport BJJ

[Mr Mojo Lane]

The old school BJJ punches above its weight really well but doesn't do too well against people who know BJJ--e.g. Royce

 

[Dogstarman]

Reading old thread. I think the ops post is spot on. I train a Royce Gracie school that is only open twice a week. I train Gracie University at home all the damn time. Having multiple partners at a school is the best benefit of a school. The instructor is solid but can only do so much during the hour. A lot of lower belts help out but they are far from teachers. That being said, you can train slow as hell at the house and take your time on the details. Plus, I don't know about everyone else but I'm not a dumbass. I can watch something and figure it out. Especially if I have a couple of buddies who train with me. The Combatives program was great when I did it. Besides, as a cop, and someone who actually sees and is involved with real assholes routinely, I can safely say, most don't have any training, especially BJJ. I can't stan d it when folks compare how good bjj training is by only using it against another BJJ guy. Doesn't happen like that in real lfe. Last, I remember in the military I started online school back in the day when it was a "joke" to some. 3 master degrees and a GS15 federal job later, I'm the one laughing. Definitely worked for me just like any online training has worked. Some folks don't get it. Learning is subjective and so is the learning curve. Again, I'm not a dumbass and can watch a video, listen to the instructions and do just fine. Learned to play guitar and cook chili online too. Bjj ain't rocket science. Hell, half the old dudes used VHS and seminars....

Use what works for you and win in life. When I put folks in jail, they never cared if I learned to beat their ass at home, at the dojo, or at the job. They just knew they got rolled up.

Lol. Is this some kind of fucking joke thread or copy pasta? Because it sounds like a copy pasta. I’m sorry, 3 masters degrees and a gs 15 actually making arrests, lol. Maybe you are a gs-7 driving the prison bus.

 

[Coconutwater]

I think BJJ schools should offer the Gracie Combatives program for their first white belt stripe.

Best advice yet. It acknowledges the value but doesn’t slow the pace.

 

[Big Nasty Edison]

Holy necro batman

 

[anaconda]

Just realized how old this thread is.

 

[kenetics]

So I have been training in both Gracie Combatives at a Gracie Garage and BJJ at a sport BJJ school for a year and a half now. I thought I would share my experiences and opinion since periodically someone will come on the board, ask questions, and get some very one sided answers from people who really have no experience with both.

"The world according to me (take it for what it is worth)."

The basis of all BJJ is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. That being said, sport BJJ is geared toward competition with rules so many schools no longer teach ANY of the pure self defense techniques. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has gone through a metamorphosis and has been adapted to fit the current competition environment.

BJJ techniques are geared toward facing an opponent in competition that also knows BJJ. The Gracie Combatives are really just a selection of the original self defense techniques taught by Helio and are not designed to be used against someone who knows BJJ.

Against someone who knows BJJ some of the Combatives work (Trap and Roll), others become irrelevant (punch block series), and other still will not work on them at all (this version of elevator sweep). That is not what they are designed for. However, in my experience they work REALLY WELL on those that do not know jiu jitsu. They work better and are more efficient than specifically BJJ techniques against these people. Some people my not believe this, but just think about it for a minute. Techniques are geared to act counter to a specific action. BJJ practitioners are much less likely to make a novice type of mistake. They have reactions to counter your technique and balance and the BJJ techniques take those reactions into account. An opponent untrained in BJJ with have completely different reactions than one trained in BJJ. Because of this certain techniques will not work on them as well, others work much better. Will BJJ techniques still work for self defense? Of course, but their are techniques in the Combatives that are more effective in this very specific situation.

Gracie Combatives techniques are great if you take them for what they were designed to do. They are not meant for sport competition, but they are still the original Gracie techniques as taught by Helio (not all of them, 36 of them to be exact).

Now onto the training in a garage vs training in a school controversy. In my opinion most BJJ instructionals are not detailed enough to allow you to learn very effectively at home without an experienced coach to guide you. Once you reach a certain level and know and understand the basics of jiu jitsu, then you can probably learn a great deal on your own with the instructionals and make them work for you without a coach. That being said I agree with many that it would be very difficult to learn on your own from the beginning without a good instructor.

Unlike the most BJJ instructionals, the Gracie Combatives are extremely detailed. They spend as much as 30 minutes to one hour on a single lesson (including explanation, demonstration, details, and drills). This makes the set very large by necessity (13 DVDs to cover 36 lessons). They cover all the most common mistakes, etc.

I really like some the BJJ instructionals like the Roy Dean Blue Belt set. It is great and for BJJ quite detailed, but not nearly as detailed as the Combatives. It cannot be, it covers many techniques in only 2 dvds. Also the Gracie Combatives is inexpensive ($120) for the amount of information that you get. I suspect that the only reason they can charge so little is that it they will make more money with everything else you buy on their site once you get hooked. Many of the things they sell on their online store are very expensive like $40 T-shirts, $45 shorts, posters, mats, belt testing fees, etc. I am not hating on them, it is business and they are very, very good at it.

I doubt that any BJJ instructor is going to have the time or means to make a set nearly as detailed as the Combatives. If they do it will have to be way to expensive for most people to afford.

Perceived weakness with the Gracie Combatives: no sparring until blue belt.
Alot of people really area against this and I can understand why. They are good things about it and bad things. How many of you have been injured multiple times or re-injured and had to take some significant time off training? How many have had to quite completely. I know that I have had to take months off because of injuries. The journey from white to blue is got to be one of the most injury prone periods in jiu jitsu because you really do not know how to roll safely at first and you do not know your own limits. If you knew the basics and were comfortable on the ground by drilling techniques and fight simulation drills for 250 hrs before competing for sparring you would be much less like to injure yourself. That would make you much more likely to continue your journey in jiu jitsu. This makes everyone happier. You are happy because you can continue to learn injury free, the Gracie's are happy because they have satisfied customers, you continue to train and buy things/spread the word and make the Gracies even more money and hence more happy.

Obviously the other side of this is that since you do not spar until later in the game you are not learning as quickly (maybe this is partially balanced by time out for injuries?). I believe in sparring. I think that it is what really sets this martial art aside from others. You can spar full speed and power and see if it works. Everyone can walk away unscathed (usually) and do it again the next day.

In my opinion it is very hard to pick up "clean" technique in a school. To really get technique clean and crisp you have to drill, drill, drill, drill...you get the picture. There is no time for that in class usually. In my experience you are usually exposed to too many techniques in too short a period to really learn much or build any reflexes. If you are lucky you pick up one and eventually in the next few sparring sessions you can make it start to work for you. I feel that this is a really inefficient way of learning. What I get most out of class is the sparring.

The Combatives is much better for learning technique, BUT again these techniques are not really great for BJJ. And the sparring is lacking until later of course.

Conclusion: Training Gracie Combatives is not better or worse than training at a sport BJJ school. They both have different purposes. I am glad I have done both. I love the sparring. One thing I have learned from the Combatives is that in order to make my sport BJJ better I really need a training partner with whom I can drill BJJ technique. That combined with class would be a great combo.

1st what belt level are you in bjj?

2ND. Actually competing in bjj competition will actually prepare you better in a real fight due to..

Actually fighting someone who you don't know and who are trying to rip your limbs apart.

How to deal with anxiety, stress and pressure.

Now if you only do self-defense bjj with your team. (Friends) you won't feel the same stress as if you were competing against an unknown.

Now if a self defense only bjj student got into a fight on the street. He or she could freeze under distress and pressure of someone try to physically hurt them. Training in an academy with friends and training partners is different when You compete .

Now a season bjj compeitior who gets in a fight, at least they know how it feels when anxiety and pressure hits. Competing against unknowns will help them against guys on the street.

Just my two cents, and what I've witness of NY career in bjj.

 

[SinkOrSwim]

Where I train, we do both self defense and sports BJJ, we have Gi & no gi classes and we also have classes where we put on MMA gloves and roll with punches (we dont hit each other very hard). We even do some knife defense stuff (i honestly thought it knife defense was BS at first but the more I understand it, the more I see that it does work *as a last resort *and yes you will still be lucky to come out alive, but at least you have something,and if the bad guy knows any kind of knife fighting art then you are most definitely dead.).

I think the punch block and self defense stuff WILL work on people who DONT Know BJJ and it CAN work on people who DO know BJJ. I definitely think you are less likely to have your face punched in by someone if you use the self defense stuff (when punches are involved), rather than most of the sports stuff, especially if you are on the bottem. If you are on top I think you could probably be a bit more "creative".

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

The self defense stuff does get too much hate. Im not talking about Gracie Combatives in particular, but if you had a gym that taught both sport and self defense, then whats the problem? What's the problem with more knowledge?

I myself am in Luta Livre and don't have to deal with those politics, but still.

 

[yetanother]

The self defense stuff does get too much hate. Im not talking about Gracie Combatives in particular, but if you had a gym that taught both sport and self defense, then whats the problem? What's the problem with more knowledge?

Self defense crap is a waste of my and my training partners time.

 

[fucmeflaysh]

I've never taken bjj in any way shape or form. I'd like to get everyone's opinion. I'm thinking about taking the GC classes
at gracie cincinnati but here is where I'm thrashing my brain on what to do. I want to learn street self defense (im 38 and
want to get in shape and be able to apply real street moves if necessary) as well as take up a hobby that will be
therapeutic. There is also a guy who is a black belt under carlson gracie that used to teach at visionmma and now has his own spot. Dilemma: carlson gracie trained guy is 100 bucks a month and 10 minutes from me...gracie cincinnati is 20 minutes or so away and I'm sure the cost is much higher. carlson gracie guy doesn't have GC course.....who do I go
with? I'm also thinking about taking krav maga (5 minutes from gracie cincy) in collabo with bjj. Suggestions/insight please.

 

[fucmeflaysh]

Holy. Cow. I just received my answer via email on what I will be doing. I found out the GC course offers 2 courses
per week for a handsome (imo) monthly rate...zero rolling (I think until masters cycle). I have faith things will be okay
working with a black belt instructor under carlson gracie.

 

[Quebec Nick]

Self defense crap is a waste of my and my training partners time.

I took a kubotan seminar a year back and it was kind of fun, I work in an office so defense with a pencil-like weapon could be useful.

Sure now, because I never use it (it's unvelievably easy to avoid anykind of fighting streetlike situations) I don't remember 90% of it but it was still fun to do.