More Myths about BJJ history

[Chump]

24 Myths and Misconceptions in 1989 Playboy Rorion Gracie Interview


http://Global-Training-Report.com/myths3_PatJordan1989.htm

Also

18 Myths and Misconceptions in Gracies in Action 1


http://global-training-report.com/myths2_GIA1988.htm

And

Backstory on Myths and Misconceptions series:

http://global-training-report.com/myths_backstory.htm

And

Top 30 Myths and Misconceptions, with new content regarding Taro Miyake myth, Erwin Klausner myth, Osaka theory, etc.:

http://global-training-report.com/myths.htm

 

[Alonbenav]

 

[Coconutwater]

Good information.

 

[Dogstarman]

Can we get brief explanations of each link?

 

[Deleted member 245586]

Believe what you see, not what you hear.

 

[davou]

Hard to see something that happened in the 40's

 

[Coconutwater]

You need only listen to Renzo or basically Carlos Gracie's side of the lineage to get a more impartial history of Gracie jiu jitsu. You never even hear GA mumble one word of the Fadda lineage, despite Helio himself giving props to Fadda. Plus adding "Leverage" to jiu-jitsu is bologna, judo, ju-jitsu or all martial arts for that matter employ leverage and are designed to be used against bigger opposition. Even a lightweight boxer if trained can beat 95% of big guys who don't box at all. Same for BJJ, a small BJJ player can beat 95% of big guys who don't know any jiu jitsu. There is always a 5% chance of winning against a skilled person if there is a significant size and or conditioning advantage.

 

[jack36767]

You need only listen to Renzo or basically Carlos Gracie's side of the lineage to get a more impartial history of Gracie jiu jitsu. You never even hear GA mumble one word of the Fadda lineage, despite Helio himself giving props to Fadda. Plus adding "Leverage" to jiu-jitsu is bologna, judo, ju-jitsu or all martial arts for that matter employ leverage and are designed to be used against bigger opposition. Even a lightweight boxer if trained can beat 95% of big guys who don't box at all. Same for BJJ, a small BJJ player can beat 95% of big guys who don't know any jiu jitsu. There is always a 5% chance of winning against a skilled person if there is a significant size and or conditioning advantage.

Can someone make this a sticky

 

[trustdoesntrust]

You need only listen to Renzo or basically Carlos Gracie's side of the lineage to get a more impartial history of Gracie jiu jitsu. You never even hear GA mumble one word of the Fadda lineage, despite Helio himself giving props to Fadda. Plus adding "Leverage" to jiu-jitsu is bologna, judo, ju-jitsu or all martial arts for that matter employ leverage and are designed to be used against bigger opposition. Even a lightweight boxer if trained can beat 95% of big guys who don't box at all. Same for BJJ, a small BJJ player can beat 95% of big guys who don't know any jiu jitsu. There is always a 5% chance of winning against a skilled person if there is a significant size and or conditioning advantage.

One thing I've often thought is how the true progenitors of modern bjj are really helio's kids, especially rolls and rickson. All the wrestling and aggressive top control, the guard play relying on tricky angles and submissions, and the positional hierarchy with its subtle control points resemble very little of the stiff judo + collar choking guard that helio did. Second hand judo does seem to be the base of modern bjj, but all the unbeatable stuff that Royce unleashed on the early UFC's seems like it was developed and workshopped a generation later.

 

[Coconutwater]

One thing I've often thought is how the true progenitors of modern bjj are really helio's kids, especially rolls and rickson. All the wrestling and aggressive top control, the guard play relying on tricky angles and submissions, and the positional hierarchy with its subtle control points resemble very little of the stiff judo + collar choking guard that helio did. Second hand judo does seem to be the base of modern bjj, but all the unbeatable stuff that Royce unleashed on the early UFC's seems like it was developed and workshopped a generation later.

I think it was just the countless Gracie challenge matches that added to the collective wisdom of how to approach fighting different styles, including American wrestlers. This only made their jiu-jitsu more lethal. It's basically stalled since then. Sure there are additions, GA teaches some modern stuff, but all in all, everyone has caught up with the fundamentals and so now it's no longer style but well-roundedness and conditioning, at least in MMA.

Kron was the last to rep Helio-style BJJ against World Champions.

 

[Ninjapunch209]

Teddy Roosevelt rolled

 

[Ninjamurf]

Hmm, I gotta say, everyone who wrote in those articles sound just as biased to the other side as Helio/Rorion are for theirs. I believe the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

I think it was just the countless Gracie challenge matches that added to the collective wisdom of how to approach fighting different styles, including American wrestlers. This only made their jiu-jitsu more lethal. It's basically stalled since then. Sure there are additions, GA teaches some modern stuff, but all in all, everyone has caught up with the fundamentals and so now it's no longer style but well-roundedness and conditioning, at least in MMA.

Kron was the last to rep Helio-style BJJ against World Champions.

Hasn't caught up to what? Competitions? MMA?
The fundementals were never for that. The fundementals were and are if someone bigger and stronger than you attacks you in the street you need to defend your self.
With no foundation of jiu jitsu everything else is the flavor of the month. Understand why Jiu jitsu was developed and you will understand the goal was to protect all people and not win tournaments

 

[dmwalking]

Cliffs? Some people don't have time to trawl through pages of info.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I think it was just the countless Gracie challenge matches that added to the collective wisdom of how to approach fighting different styles, including American wrestlers. This only made their jiu-jitsu more lethal. It's basically stalled since then. Sure there are additions, GA teaches some modern stuff, but all in all, everyone has caught up with the fundamentals and so now it's no longer style but well-roundedness and conditioning, at least in MMA.

Kron was the last to rep Helio-style BJJ against World Champions.

I would suggest that Demian Maia is repping Helio-style BJJ against World Champions. He has a similar strategy as Royce, only with a more complex wrestling, sweeping, and passing game to deal with the higher-caliber and better-trained opponents.

And I would argue that jiu-jitsu has advanced greatly since the Gracies consolidated their fighting style. Just the exponentially larger pool of athletes training jiu-jitsu around the world, both for sport and for MMA, has caused a worldwide workshopping of techniques similar to how Helio's kids probably pioneered what we think of as BJJ. I know there's a contentious street vs. sport debate, but in reality there's so many advanced techniques and strategies out there that literally anybody can find something effective for their body type, philosophy, and fighting purpose.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I would suggest that Demian Maia is repping Helio-style BJJ against World Champions. He has a similar strategy as Royce, only with a more complex wrestling, sweeping, and passing game to deal with the higher-caliber and better-trained opponents.

And I would argue that jiu-jitsu has advanced greatly since the Gracies consolidated their fighting style. Just the exponentially larger pool of athletes training jiu-jitsu around the world, both for sport and for MMA, has caused a worldwide workshopping of techniques similar to how Helio's kids probably pioneered what we think of as BJJ. I know there's a contentious street vs. sport debate, but in reality there's so many advanced techniques and strategies out there that literally anybody can find something effective for their body type, philosophy, and fighting purpose.

I think demain is totally the oppositve as what royce did, maia does not look to fight off his back anymore, he looks to sweep or stand back up...