Mexico´s violence spiraling up as cartels vie for control.

That's what I heard. BTW, is the Riviera Maya safe?

I was considering going there next year. To one of the all-inclusive resorts.
I went there a few years ago, forgot the name of the resort we stayed at. Was beautiful and it blew my mind because they put a lot of emphasis on greenery and the outdoors so it was different from all the places I've visited which were ultimately very fancy concrete slabs. It was on a river and near a beach. The beach was shitty though because of all the rocks. Very clear water but you don't want to enter it though. Very good food, I never skipped breakfast. Safe area, only thing I didn't like besides the beach was all the people trying to sell you shit once you went into the city.
 
How about instead of stupid ass walls, we help the mexican government shore up their country. We systematically dominate and destroy the cartels. I'm pretty certain this would make Mexico a better place, thus ensuring, at least in principle, less need to flee and come to America.

Not that I disagree with hoping for Mexico to become more stable and prosperous. But we tried that once. US and Israeli Special Forces trained and armed the elite Mexican Commandos to fight the cartels and many subsequently went rogue and became the enforcers for the Gulf Cartel before splitting off and founding Los Zetas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas

Are you talking about sending US forces to occupy Mexico and engage in military actions? If so, have you considered what it would take to be successful in that respect? What would need to be achieved to attain victory? Are you ready to do what it takes to cleanse the Mexican Government of corruption? Is there a timetable as to how long that would take? What it would entail? The amount of resources we should be willing to allocate to realize success? Or consider that the well financed and battle hardened cartels might take a page out of the Islamist playbook and wage guerrilla warfare throughout Mexico or simply seek to wait out US commitment to this endeavor? Or that the cartels, who have established networks within the U.S., may be willing to engage us on our own soil when faced with the "systematic domination and destruction" you call for?
 
You are quite likely to be safe traveling to most places in Mexico.

As a peruvian i would stick to the known tourist spots and packages though and not do stupid things like travelling dangerous roads at night.

I know better than that. ;)

I'm no nature freak. I would stick to the beach, the pool, the casinos and the guided tours of Chichén Itzá and Tulum.

...says you and your opinion. I would expect a better response from someone from Peru, the poorest country in South America.

Are your serious?! o_O

First of all, Peru is not the poorest country in South America. On a per capita basis, Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay and Venezuela are all worse off than Peru in terms of GDP. To say nothing of the growth rates of the past decade.

Second of all, the corruption of the region's armed forces is well documented and universally known. It is not my opinion.
 
I know better than that. ;)

I'm no nature freak. I would stick to the beach, the pool, the casinos and the guided tours of Chichén Itzá and Tulum.



Are your serious?! o_O

First of all, Peru is not the poorest country in South America. On a per capita basis, Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay and Venezuela are all worse off than Peru in terms of GDP. To say nothing of the growth rates of the past decade.

Second of all, the corruption of the region's armed forces is well documented and universally known. It is not my opinion.

The Yucatan peninsula was jungle not long ago, so there arent any major industrial ports or anything so its probably safe even at night, the worst security issues there are Maras who go there from central America.
 
First of all, Peru is not the poorest country in South America. On a per capita basis, Bolivia, Ecuador, Paraguay and Venezuela are all worse off than Peru in terms of GDP.

Actually you are right. I was thinking Bolivia which has really gone down in recent years.
. Peru 2016 GDP: 192 billion USD
. Bolivia 2016 GDP: 34 billion USD
That's almost 6 times what Bolivia has. A huge improvement from 40 years ago.
 
How about instead of stupid ass walls, we help the mexican government shore up their country. We systematically dominate and destroy the cartels. I'm pretty certain this would make Mexico a better place, thus ensuring, at least in principle, less need to flee and come to America.



how do you we help? What do you want us to invade?
 
how do you we help? What do you want us to invade?
2AE6833F00000578-3176873-Tourists_walk_past_large_quantities_of_seaweed_piling_up_on_the_-m-19_1438071355644.jpg
 
Still triggered by the truth? So now anyone against mass immigration, multiculturalism, Trudeau and progress is me?

It never occurred to you that Canadians that love their country don't want it to change into a progressive nightmare like many other countries around the world?

You acting like a pathetic bitter minority and pretty much saying haha minorities are taking over whole areas does what for unity? You're happy Canada is being fragmented. Is it because you're Jealous and that many parts of India are complete shit holes with a shit culture and racist? Ever thought about making India great again? You should go back home and try it.
RIP i'll get on that but i have to first pick up my cousin and his family from the airport who have just immigrated and im sure in a month or two he will have more canadian dollars saved up than you have ever saved in your life.
 
How about instead of stupid ass walls, we help the mexican government shore up their country. We systematically dominate and destroy the cartels. I'm pretty certain this would make Mexico a better place, thus ensuring, at least in principle, less need to flee and come to America.

I often wonder why this doesn't happen. Part of me assumes that it's because the problem isn't the cartels but the corrupt local governments that enable the cartels. So, it would have to be like an occupying force where you take out the cartels and then install a new, safe local government. Shouldn't Mexico be capable of doing this already or is the corruption so widespread that it's too huge a task?
 
Mexico's Deadliest Town. Mexico's Deadliest Year.

NYT




TECOMÁN, Mexico — He slumped in a shabby white chair, his neck unnaturally twisted to the right. A cellphone rested inches away, as if he had just put it down. His unlaced shoes lay beneath outstretched legs, a morbid still life of what this town has become.
Israel Cisneros, 20, died instantly in his father’s one-room house. By the time the police arrived at the crime scene, their second homicide of the night, the blood seeping from the gunshot wound to his left eye had begun to harden and crack, leaving a skin of garish red scales over his face and throat.


Tecoman, Colima: a Part of What was Once One of the Safest States in Mexico
photo: Rodrigo Cruz / NYT
This was once one of the safest parts of Mexico, a place where people fleeing the nation’s infamous drug battles would come for sanctuary. Now, officials here in Tecomán, a quiet farming town in the coastal state of Colima, barely shrug when two murders occur within hours of each other. It’s just not that uncommon any more.

Last year, the town became the deadliest municipality in all of Mexico, with a homicide rate similar to a war zone’s, according to an independent analysis of government data. This year it is on track to double that figure, making it perhaps the most glaring example of a nationwide crisis.

The last couple of months have set particularly ominous records: More homicide scenes have emerged across Mexico than at any point since the nation began keeping track 20 years ago.


Some of the crime scenes, like the room where Mr. Cisneros was found dead in his chair, had only one victim. Others had many. But their increasing frequency points to an alarming rise in violence between warring cartels.
Criminal groups are even sweeping into parts of Mexico that used to be secure, creating a flood of killings that, by some tallies, is surpassing the carnage experienced during the peak of the drug war in 2011.
“What is happening here is happening in the entire state, the entire country,” said José Guadalupe García Negrete, the mayor of Tecomán, a coastal community of roughly 100, 000. “It’s like a cancer.”
For President Enrique Peña Nieto, the torrent is much more than a rebuke of the government’s efforts to fight organized crime. It is a fundamental challenge to his guiding narrative: that Mexico is moving well beyond the shackles of violence and insecurity.


Mexican president Enrique Pena Nieto, "EPN"
Long before he took office, Mr. Peña Nieto made it clear that he would reshape Mexico’s international image, transforming it from a nation sullied by its deadly reputation into a globally recognized leader in energy, education, telecommunications and trade.
For a while, it worked. His economic changes sailed through Congress. Even as the grisly reality of violence reared its head, like the mass disappearance of 43 students in 2014, tourism climbed and homicides fell, a fact the president often mentioned in speeches.
But the numbers are overtaking the plotline. Homicides are soaring. Violence is also stalking places like Baja California Sur, home of the resort town Los Cabos, pushing Mr. Peña Nieto’s image of Mexico toward a breaking point.


Another Pacific Coastal Paradise Going the Same Way as Others
How Long Before Mexico's Booming Tourist Industry Goes Bust ?
(Many of which are part of the Giant Money Laundering Business)
“The Peña Nieto administration seriously underestimated, or misunderstood, the nature of the problem that Mexico was experiencing,” said David Shirk, a professor at the University of San Diego who has studied the drug war. “They thought by using marketing they could change the conversation and refocus people’s attention on all the good things that were happening, and away from the violence problem that they thought was totally overblown.”
The government says it has taken violence as seriously as anything else. But the rise in homicides comes from many forces, it says: the weakness of local and state police, the fracturing of criminal groups after their leaders have been arrested, the increase in demand for drugs in the United States and the flow of money and weapons it sends back to Mexico.
“The Government of the Republic has spoken out publicly about the upsurge of violence as a priority issue,” the Ministry of Interior said in a statement, adding that it has deployed the armed forces to dangerous cities like Tecomán.
But, faced with the surging homicides, government officials have also put forward another culprit to help explain them: the sweeping legal reforms pursued by their predecessors.
Begun in 2008 and completed last year with the help of more than $300 million in American aid, the new legal system is widely considered the most important change to Mexican jurisprudence in a century. Intended to fix the nation’s broken rule of law, it essentially adopted the model used in the United States, where innocence is presumed before guilt, evidence is presented in open court and corruption is harder to hide.
But the new legal system inhibits arbitrary detentions. Suspects held without evidence have been released, leading a growing chorus of officials to argue that the new system is responsible for the very surge in crime and impunity it was supposed to prevent.
For months, top officials in the president’s party have been laying the groundwork to chip away at the new legal system, taking aim at basic civil protections like the inadmissibility of evidence obtained through torture. And with violence worsening, the government has new ammunition to roll back the legal changes, pushing for broader powers like the ability to detain suspects for years before trial.
Mr. García, the mayor of Tecomán, understands the president’s dilemma all too well. As one of seven children born to a family of lime farmers here, he is a fierce defender of his town and does not want it to become a byword for murder.
Scream too loudly about the crisis around him and he risks reducing his community to another grim statistic. Stay silent and it could be overrun by criminals, helpless to confront them alone.

Tecoman's Mayor, Jose Guadalupe Garcia Negrete, in his Office
Not one for silence, Mr. García has opted to make a fuss. Cowboy hat in hand, he has made the rounds in Congress and among the political elite in the capital, landing help for his town. Not that it has done much for Tecomán.
Last year, the federal government sent in the marines, the military and the military police. Operations soared in the early months of 2017. But the grand result was the same: Homicides climbed even higher.
“You can’t attack a fundamental problem like this by pruning the leaves, or dealing with the branches,” says Mr. García, who often uses farming metaphors. “You have to go to the roots.

So he has decided to take his message to the young. On a recent afternoon, dozens of school children lined up in the sweltering heat for their elementary school graduation. The mayor adjusted his hat and dived into his speech.
Tecomán was losing its values, the traditions that kept families intact and the criminals at bay, he told them. He mopped his brow and continued. Forces from outside were tearing at the fabric of the community, and citizens needed to redouble their efforts to stay strong in the face of it all.
“We celebrate life, not death, here in Tecomán,” he said. “We must be the architects of our own lives and futures.”
The government’s monthly statistics, which date back to 1997, suggest a hard road ahead. The data tracks crime scenes, where one, two or ten killings may have occurred. May and June, the latest months available, set consecutive records for the most homicide scenes in the last 20 years.



The total number of homicides in Mexico is also climbing quickly. According to the government’s monthly tally, which goes back to 2014, May and June also set consecutive records for the most total homicides. This year is on pace to be the deadliest yet.
It is an indictment of the drug war. The strategy of the United States and Mexico to relentlessly pursue high-ranking cartel leaders has not dampened the violence. To the contrary, some experts believe, the extradition of Mexico’s most notorious drug baron, Joaquín Guzmán Loera, known as El Chapo, to the United States this year helped generate the latest wave of violence as various factions look to fill the power vacuum left in his wake.
A sudden brazenness prevails on the streets of Tecomán. Late last month, a red Volkswagen barreled through the congested streets at 80 m.p.h. Four patrol cars gave chase before an officer shot out the back tire.
The driver struggled with the police. Handcuffed, he stared at the officer straddling him and promised they would see each other again.


Man Threatens Cops During a Speeding Stop
Photo: Rodrigo Cruz / NYT
“You already know how this ends, and what happens to you,” he said before screaming out to a friend: “Come and kill them all right now. Kill them!”
For many, a dull familiarity with the violence has settled in. Restaurants still teem with patrons. Families host festive baptisms for newborns. On a recent evening, young and old swarmed the central square, the children playing soccer while elderly residents sat on benches, enjoying the sunless warmth.
Angela Hernández brought her 5-year-old son for an ice cream. When she moved to town 10 years ago, there were hardly any murders. Still, she doesn’t feel frightened.
“It really only touches those involved in the world of crime,” she said. She knows her child is growing up in an environment where violence is stitched into the rhythm of life, but in the end, she’s O.K. with that, she said.
“It’s better he gets used to it,” she said as her son climbed a gazebo railing nearby. “This is not going to change. None of it.”

@El Chapo

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Not that I disagree with hoping for Mexico to become more stable and prosperous. But we tried that once. US and Israeli Special Forces trained and armed the elite Mexican Commandos to fight the cartels and many subsequently went rogue and became the enforcers for the Gulf Cartel before splitting off and founding Los Zetas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Zetas

Are you talking about sending US forces to occupy Mexico and engage in military actions? If so, have you considered what it would take to be successful in that respect? What would need to be achieved to attain victory? Are you ready to do what it takes to cleanse the Mexican Government of corruption? Is there a timetable as to how long that would take? What it would entail? The amount of resources we should be willing to allocate to realize success? Or consider that the well financed and battle hardened cartels might take a page out of the Islamist playbook and wage guerrilla warfare throughout Mexico or simply seek to wait out US commitment to this endeavor? Or that the cartels, who have established networks within the U.S., may be willing to engage us on our own soil when faced with the "systematic domination and destruction" you call for?

Good questions, but I think the comparison to the jihad problem is flawed.

The jihadists are experts in the game of hearts and minds, and also stand on the alter of long held distrust of the west.

The cartels don't give a shit about hearts and minds, and I find it hard to imagine the cartels fairing well against US military force without the protection of the populace.

When we have won the hearts and minds of the populace, we actually have a good nation building record, even if we take our pound of flesh in economic spoils.

Mexico is not Iraq or Vietnam. We would be welcomed as liberators, and the populace has not lived under dictatorship for generations. There would be no need to remove the Mexican government, so we wouldn't even really be nation building. I only support this idea with consent of the Mexican government, and being given carte Blanche to arrest people only in the case of cartel activity. Conduct court hearings under Mexican law, and to be housed in Mexican corrections facilities, with the exception of someone like el cheapo.

Basically our job, would be to arrest or eliminate the cartels, and provide personell for the court proceedings that can't be corrupted. I would want a time limit on this agreement, and a full withdrawal from Mexico by us personell when that time period is up.
 
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The best way to tone down the violence, is by assisting one cartel to gain dominance over the rest.

I'm not sure about the current power structures, but I figured that "El Chapo" was one of the more reasonable ones, as far as drug lords go. Knocking him off may have only led to worse men assuming his position.
 
I often wonder why this doesn't happen. Part of me assumes that it's because the problem isn't the cartels but the corrupt local governments that enable the cartels. So, it would have to be like an occupying force where you take out the cartels and then install a new, safe local government. Shouldn't Mexico be capable of doing this already or is the corruption so widespread that it's too huge a task?

The cartels barely have a conventional armed presence, its as you said, corrupt local governments. And corruption is that widespread, and a there is a lot of cartel money in political campaigns.

The problem will sort itself out in 10 years or so.
 
Ok; we'll assume that works for US cities, but the topic is Mexico. Legalize drugs in the US and the Cartels just increase their human smuggling, prostitution, and extortion activities.

You can't honestly expect the cartels to simply stop looking for ways to make money off of other peoples suffering.

This is a defeatist and weak mindset. Akin to if you kill your enemies they win.
 
This is a defeatist and weak mindset. Akin to if you kill your enemies they win.

Actually I thought I was looking at the problem from the Mexican perspective. If the thread was asking how to solve gang problems in the US my opinion would be different.

To me the proposed solution was akin to cutting off you arm because your ankle hurts.
 
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