Mahammad Ali getting smashed at IBJJF Austin Open

You know they changed that rule after this year world? I renewed my ref credentials and they informed me that if the athlete from bottom comes up with a sweep and is standing up more than 3 seconds but then put down by other athlete, it's 2 points for take down .

I see that now in the new IBJJF rule change bulletin. Good call.

Based on that new definition of the transition to standing, looks like it would be two points. It seems they are changing the definition of the transition from keeping a grip to just a three second countdown. They were standing longer than three seconds.

This is another one of those situations where BJJ being somewhat fractured adds confusion to the rules. This was Spyder not IBJJF, so do we know which version of the rules was supposed to be in force? The IBJJF change was only about a month beforehand so not sure that everyone got on the same page in other organizations.
 
The logic follows when you consider that only attacks are rewarded with points. Defenses are not, even if the positional result is the same.


Such a thing is a specious false dichotomy, though.

Only rewarding attacks is pretty typical in other grappling rulesets as well. Landing flat on your back on the bottom from standing scores against you in Judo only if it was the opponent's attack that did it. If it was your attack that caused it (failed sacrifice throw), there is no score. Once again, same positional result, two different scores. It's perfectly logical though when you realize the logic is based on attack vs defense.


There is criteria like that in greco-roman wrestling as well (you usually see it with arm spin attacks); a faulty logic that results in weird behavior. Competitors willingly putting themselves in bad situations, because they can trust that the rules will protect them, rather than protecting themselves.

If you gave points for returning to positions that you were already in, you could rack up mount points over and over just by shutting down escape attempts. So the incentive would be for the bottom guy to just shell up then since it's hard to escape and any failed escape would count four points against him when you reestablished mount again.


Technically speaking, this is already the case (in ibjjf rules). If you want to get a large(r) score, you will have to do things like letting them recompose after a pass, so you can pass again. Or let them out 'halfway' from a back take, so you can 'take the back' again. Or let them have quarter guard from mount, so you can strip it again. Or going to knee on belly, then back to side, then knee again... and so on. Useless movements for the sake of movement. Well not even merely useless, it is anti-grappling rather, being incentivized to worsen position.

(You know the passing rules themselves are another thing that bothers me; rather than letting competitors use whatever are the most elegant, efficient, or creative methods of getting past the legs (like say sweeps/reversals or takedowns directly to side), you can only use Party Approved methods of getting past the legs if you want to be rewarded for it.)

Obviously this is why scoring with riding times are the most godly choices.

I think what you are going towards is finding some way to penalize guard pulling initially. Then the top guy always starts up a bit in these situations. The problem I see with that is that we already have a ruleset where it's like this in certain matches (ADCC), and those are the worst matches ever. That could be fixed by calling stalling much more aggressively, but I think guard pulling penalties + aggressive stalling calls would make BJJ not much different than Judo.


If, in the course of making a simple reasonable ruleset, it starts looking 'more like judo', i would say, that in itself simply expresses the relative importance takedowns ultimately have in the grand scheme of things. Rather, i say it would require specific, arbitrary, and quite possible contradictory machinations of rules to try and deemphasize the importance of takedowns (like in Carlinhos' invention), when the natural tendency is their value.

The thing with the ADCC rules is that it's not really what i propose. In particular, the problem with their rules is that they are not consistent; having one ruleset for early matches, and another ruleset for later championship matches. That is, one where half the time is a 'free period' and the other is scored the whole time. So basically what ends up happening is, rather than turning their training camps to one or the other, grapplers from ibjjf backgrounds tend to train not all that different from how they usually do (where pulling guard is more or less fine and takedowns are not really important). So that when the rules suddenly change come championship match time, it's so often between guys who, for all their talent otherwise, are basically 'merely' journeymen when it comes to the neutral game, resulting in uber-defensive stinkers between players being cautious in an area they are not so familiar with.

Also a quibble over the fact that there is some unnecessary tendentious hairsplitting wrt to what constitutes a guard pull and a takedown that offends my aesthetic sensibilities (like a 1 point 'penalty' for one rather than simply the same two points for all; once again we see the cancer that is 'intentionality' based scoring). Also the fact that the takedown rules themselves, in the adcc, are far more strict than pretty much any other ruleset out there (even in the ibjjf). In basically any form of wrestling you might care to mention, getting behind someone and putting him down on all fours is a good takedown. But under adcc rules, he is never the less still considered in neutral; the only time you will get takedown points awarded is if you specifically hold him down on his back for X seconds. And if i recall correctly, not even knocking him onto his butt counts either, which in most cases would count in folkstyle, but didn't count in Cobrinha's match vs AJ Agazarm.
 
If, in the course of making a simple reasonable ruleset, it starts looking 'more like judo', i would say, that in itself simply expresses the relative importance takedowns ultimately have in the grand scheme of things. Rather, i say it would require specific, arbitrary, and quite possible contradictory machinations of rules to try and deemphasize the importance of takedowns (like in Carlinhos' invention), when the natural tendency is their value.

I don't think it requires specific, arbitrary rules to make takedowns less important. In fact some the simplest rule sets out there do just that.

No time limit, no points, submission only is one of the simplest rule sets out there. Takedowns matter hardly at all under this rule set.

Takedowns matter more in an MMA context, but it can be argued that the current importance of takedowns is more a function of the modern MMA rules and demands for action to please a crowd. No time limit, no judges, no gloves, no rounds, vale tudo style would probably make the guard much stronger like it used to be.

Even within the rules of modern MMA, we saw Ryan Hall use a strategy almost completely devoid of conventional takedowns to win a fight. But we won't see it again because the fans didn't like it.

So I don't think it's really that obvious that takedowns naturally become super important with less rules. I think it's the opposite actually.
 
No time limit, no points, submission only is one of the simplest rule sets out there. Takedowns matter hardly at all under this rule set.


I actually expected this rejoinder. There are more than a few people out there who argue that sub-only rulesets themselves are actually more arbitrary and unrealistic compared to most point-based rulesets, precisely because of that behavior.

After all, if taking a 'less limiting' approach was indeed one's aim, then having strikes too would be a germane extension no? And if you add strikes on the ground, then all of a sudden, getting on top (and by extension, the most elegant method of getting on top, takedowns from neutral) starts becoming a lot more important.

The mention of Ryan Hall is ironically damning the point by faint praise; an exception is exceptional precisely because they are an exception; an exception that proves the rule, that the question of takedowns (whether defending them, or prosecuting them), is of central import in it's influence over MMA metagames.
 
Technically speaking, this is already the case (in ibjjf rules). If you want to get a large(r) score, you will have to do things like letting them recompose after a pass, so you can pass again. Or let them out 'halfway' from a back take, so you can 'take the back' again. Or let them have quarter guard from mount, so you can strip it again. Or going to knee on belly, then back to side, then knee again... and so on. Useless movements for the sake of movement. Well not even merely useless, it is anti-grappling rather, being incentivized to worsen position..

It's mostly low level behavior in IBJJF. Sure some people might use such tactics but that's mostly because they have skill gaps.
Getting a dominant position and going for a sub when they try to escape is a lot better tactics if you are skilled.
 
The mention of Ryan Hall is ironically damning the point by faint praise; an exception is exceptional precisely because they are an exception; an exception that proves the rule, that the question of takedowns (whether defending them, or prosecuting them), is of central import in it's influence over MMA metagames.

No argument from me that the fight was exceptional. It clearly was.

Why it was exceptional matters though. Was it exceptional because it's just naturally a rare and inconsistent strategy? Or was it exceptional because, even though it proved quite effective, Dana made it super clear that he was just going to tank the career of anyone who ever tried that strategy?

If the strategy is effectively banned by the promotion, we can't draw reasonable conclusions about its effectiveness from its rarity. It's just rare because it's banned at that point.

I remember when the common view was that Karate was utterly useless, etc. This didn't really change until Machida got popular.

Imagine an alternate universe in which Machida won a fight using Karate, and Dana immediately said "That was the worst fight I have ever seen. I never want to see that again." Then Machida never fought again.

Do you think some of the later developments in UFC striking would have ever occurred? Or would the fighters have just gotten the message and conformed to the stylistic template that Dana was pushing on them?

I think we have to recognize that being successful in modern MMA is now about way more than just winning fights. You have to have an "exciting" style and the promotion has to be in favor of it. This affects the strategies used quite a bit.
 
To be fair the result of Ryan Hall's strategy was the source of his ban. If he actually subbed and KO'ed people with head kicks he would be a super star rather than looking for a fight.
 
People don't get blackballed from the UFC immediately when they get decision wins using conventional strategies though.

Maybe if all they ever get is decision wins they might get tagged as a boring fighter and shut down. But it's not as instant and obvious. And the big boss Dana doesn't usually repudiate their entire strategy right after.

MMA fights were a lot different before the industry became mainstream. Some of that is because the overall talent pool was much smaller. Some of that is because the Unified Rules restricted potential strategies. And some of that is because the promotions themselves further dictate which kinds of strategies are considered marketable and entertaining to mainstream fans.

Only the talent pool increase is actually relevant to raw effectiveness. The other two factors are artificial changes. It's tough to say how much each factor affects modern MMA exactly, but I think it's pretty clear that all three are playing a part.
 
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To be fair the result of Ryan Hall's strategy was the source of his ban. If he actually subbed and KO'ed people with head kicks he would be a super star rather than looking for a fight.

This and his arrogance. The UFC offered him fights but he kept declining them saying the opponents wasn't good enough. The reality is that much of his success was his opponents unfamiliarity with his style. Gray Maynard and Artem Lobov were tailor made for his style in that they were standup bangers with had poor movement and scrambling ability. Ground and Pounders and athletic sprwl and brawlers would have gave Hall problems just like Saul Rogers did. This is especially true if given enough tape to gameplan his entries.
 
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