Kid McCoy's Last Stand ...against Sherdog.

Prefect said:
It isn't just not as fun but it is despecialization. No one can be excellent at everything, especially something that isn't conventual. If you have a specialist now, they are only BJJ or wrestlers.
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I don’t follow mma as closely as I once did. Are there any bjj specialists left? I know Kron was getting some attention for awhile, but the last time I saw him he was jumping guard a lot and I’m not sure that’s a strategy for long term success at the higher levels.
 
Yehudim said:
It’s not that people don’t like it, it’s that it doesn’t work most of the time.
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I disagree, people don't really appreciate it or even always understand why the effort was made in the first place. Ryan Hall has some beautiful leglock entries , including the one that he finished BJ Penn with, but he is considered boring. That sort of thing, at least in Japanese MMA, used to be considered spectacular. People used to have some appreciation when fighters sought to finish opponents through the application of particularly, dynamic or creative techniques that required a certain level of skill to administer. Stuff that would be the equivalent of viral back in the day isn't appreciate in this day and age nearly as much. I think part of it is because you have mainstream journalists and commentators appraising it, rather than a core of relatively educated commentators and fans, and thus what they appreciate is just going to vary.

I also think the nature of the judging and the refereeing affects things. Takedowns and dominant ground positions aren't favored in the same way, stand-ups come quicker and certainly strong submission attempts don't wrack up points like they had in some other federations in the past (in Shooto, if you had a submission locked in, but your opponent escaped, that was a "catch" and in essence gave you a 10-8 round). There's also what styles are marketable, encouraged and rewarded. You mentioned Machida, and actually, a lot pressure was put on him to change his style and to stand and trade more. And to an extent, he gave into that.
 
ccm22 said:
I don’t follow mma as closely as I once did. Are there any bjj specialists left? I know Kron was getting some attention for awhile, but the last time I saw him he was jumping guard a lot and I’m not sure that’s a strategy for long term success at the higher levels.
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Gary Tonon, Ryan Hall, Gilbert Burns, Jacare Souza, McKenzie Dern, Daniel Straus...there are a number of them.
 
mozfonky said:
he didn't just leave, wasn't he banned right before couture/toney? we all thought he'd come back but he seemed like he didn't care and just let vitriol spill out about mma fighters, insisting toney would give him what for, i almost thought he got banned on purpose so he could get his digs in and wouldn't have to hear about how wrong he was.
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this is how I remember it.

he made some pretty intense posts right before the fight. I viewed it as a way to sink his own ship so he wouldn’t have to deal with the blow back.
 
Yehudim said:
It’s not that people don’t like it, it’s that it doesn’t work most of the time.

People like less common techniques like Palhares affinity for leg locks (mental issues aside) Judo throws, Anderson Silva’s front kicks and clinch

But these days it just pays to be a boxer-wrestler because that’s what works best
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Actually, I shouldn't say that I outright disagree with you. I agree on some level, regarding the effectiveness thing (which is why it is daring and interesting to see people try and break the mold or be creative, because there is not only artistry but risk involved), and maybe to an extent about fans, but I also think that there are other factors, such as I outlined in my other post.
 
Seems like everyone here liked McCoy... except for one poster (not dropping names).
 
defjaam said:
Seems like everyone here liked McCoy... except for one poster (not dropping names).
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ya, they did, our buddy who didn't? Tends to hold a grudge and that's ok.
 
Kforcer said:
I disagree, people don't really appreciate it or even always understand why the effort was made in the first place. Ryan Hall has some beautiful leglock entries , including the one that he finished BJ Penn with, but he is considered boring. That sort of thing, at least in Japanese MMA, used to be considered spectacular. People used to have some appreciation when fighters sought to finish opponents through the application of particularly, dynamic or creative techniques that required a certain level of skill to administer. Stuff that would be the equivalent of viral back in the day isn't appreciate in this day and age nearly as much. I think part of it is because you have mainstream journalists and commentators appraising it, rather than a core of relatively educated commentators and fans, and thus what they appreciate is just going to vary.

I also think the nature of the judging and the refereeing affects things. Takedowns and dominant ground positions aren't favored in the same way, stand-ups come quicker and certainly strong submission attempts don't wrack up points like they had in some other federations in the past (in Shooto, if you had a submission locked in, but your opponent escaped, that was a "catch" and in essence gave you a 10-8 round). There's also what styles are marketable, encouraged and rewarded. You mentioned Machida, and actually, a lot pressure was put on him to change his style and to stand and trade more. And to an extent, he gave into that.
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mma grew fast and improved alot, enough so that the gracies got the hell out of the ufc when things got tough. For me, it's just a totally different demographic than boxing, I didn't like the martial artists or the mma'rs i've know for the most part, i just thought they were weird as fuck and they thought i was. Never could get each other, I can't speak for kid but all that grandiose shit just rubs boxing people the wrong way, for all it's faults, boxing people are generally down to earth. It could be kid didn't like seeing something usurping boxing, he wouldn't be alone in that either, lots of boxing writers and journalists don't want to see that. The game got better rapidly but the boxing still looks about the same as the first ufc's, no growth at all there. Apparently, maybe it just doesn't matter that much, i don't know.
 
mozfonky said:
mma grew fast and improved alot, enough so that the gracies got the hell out of the ufc when things got tough. For me, it's just a totally different demographic than boxing, I didn't like the martial artists or the mma'rs i've know for the most part, i just thought they were weird as fuck and they thought i was. Never could get each other, I can't speak for kid but all that grandiose shit just rubs boxing people the wrong way, for all it's faults, boxing people are generally down to earth. It could be kid didn't like seeing something usurping boxing, he wouldn't be alone in that either, lots of boxing writers and journalists don't want to see that. The game got better rapidly but the boxing still looks about the same as the first ufc's, no growth at all there. Apparently, maybe it just doesn't matter that much, i don't know.
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Having competed and instructed submission-grappling, I have naturally, a lot of exposure to the MMA world, as a good percentage of my students wanted to learn for the purposes of MMA and a lot of the guys that wanted me to work with them or roll with them were MMA fighters. I think there were a ton of guys that you would have gotten along with. Joe Lipsey, the former Hopkins challenger, visited a gym I used to coach at and people looked at him like a legend. There were a number of guys that really knew and respected boxing. I'm not saying they were great shakes as pure boxers, necessarily, but like me, they loved the sport.

I think its just a mix of people but I think you'd find that there were a solid number of people out there that had a healthy respect for boxing and for other combat sports in general. My buddy Jun, who used to be a pro kickboxer in Japan, absolutely loved boxing and he was nothing but respectful to local boxers he knew. You guys would probably get along great. I think it is just a mix of people, like anything.
 
Kforcer said:
Having competed and instructed submission-grappling, I have naturally, a lot of exposure to the MMA world, as a good percentage of my students wanted to learn for the purposes of MMA and a lot of the guys that wanted me to work with them or roll with them were MMA fighters. I think there were a ton of guys that you would have gotten along with. Joe Lipsey, the former Hopkins challenger, visited a gym I used to coach at and people looked at him like a legend. There were a number of guys that really knew and respected boxing. I'm not saying they were great shakes as pure boxers, necessarily, but like me, they loved the sport.

I think its just a mix of people but I think you'd find that there were a solid number of people out there that had a healthy respect for boxing and for other combat sports in general. My buddy Jun, who used to be a pro kickboxer in Japan, absolutely loved boxing and he was nothing but respectful to local boxers he knew. You guys would probably get along great. I think it is just a mix of people, like anything.
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plenty of them were genuinely nice guys in mma, but just too damned many of the other kind and the people who had the power in the business just wanted you to worship them, something i just can't do. Kid's enmity I can only guess.
 
Yehudim said:
I just assume they all are these days.

Even in boxing nowadays, it feels like everybody is a Greek god, just proportioned for their weight class.
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It’s not always easy to tell, but that was around the time the USADA was really clamping down and a lot of people were testing positive and previous users were having dramatic drops in performance. Cormier never tested positive.

What bothers me about Jones, is that he tested positive in the second fight. That’s an indication to me that he knew he couldn’t beat Cormier without it and was willing to risk testing positive to do so.

Ok, that’s enough of my Jones rant, lol, back to boxing.
 
My recollection is kid liked mma, loved trolling the fanboys who bought into the “you know Roy Jones respects those hands” nonsense.
 
Absolut said:
My recollection is kid liked mma, loved trolling the fanboys who bought into the “you know Roy Jones respects those hands” nonsense.
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Let's thay that this guilty pleasure of his got a little out of control at some point.
 
Seano said:
He just liked talking down to people.
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Lots of it was an act and a joke, IMO. But it certainly can get under people's skin. Furthermore, you can't get away too long with trolling MMA fans on what is basically a MMA forum. It's no rocket science.
 
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