Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by Hotora86, Mar 22, 2018.
Not only that, we even know how you LOOK!
EDIT: we even know that you knocked a guy the fuck out in MMA, which makes you legit AF on these forums!
Not even close!
KarateStylist > ALL
Lol, no, I'm afraid I'm not the infamous KarateStylist, although I got to read a lot of those threads--I mostly lurk on Sherdog
Lol, ah, yes, my "semi-pro" amateur MMA fight. I say "semi-pro" because it was my first ever fight as an amateur, but apparently it was my opponent's pro debut, according to the announcer. I knew he had already had 3 fights, which he won by KO, submission, and KO, all in the first round, but I didn't know he was going pro. Interestingly, that technically meant that I had to follow stricter rules than he did, which shouldn't have been allowed, although it didn't actually come into play. I can say that the tunnel vision I had in that fight was insane, and made it REALLY difficult to judge how far away he was to actually do anything . It's kind of funny to watch the first round, since I basically didn't accomplish anything but failing to land armbars and succeeding at rolling with punches, which makes it look like he's just knocking my head all over the place in the video. Thankfully the adrenaline dump wore off in time for round 2, and I could land the kick we knew he was open for. It was a nice way to end the fight, although I wasn't happy with how I handled myself in the first round, and I know I could have done better. Separating out the KO from the rest of the video makes me look so much cooler
Timed that shit like Barboza bro, props.
Back on topic:
I know you've done Shuri-Ryu and Shorin-ryu. The first is modern, yet Okinawan Karate based, the second 100% Okinawan. Based on your experience, can you assess if they were also in some way influenced by Kendo? And how much they differ from the major Japanese styles?
Thanks! It was something I drilled quite a bit, having seen footage of my opponent beforehand, so I just had to look for the telltale lead shoulder drop.
As to the topic (sorry for derailing the thread ), I would argue that although Shuri-Ryu calls itself Okinawan, it has little in common with Okinawan karate, and more in common with Japanese karate. In my experience, the basics and kata largely come from Shotokan, Shindo-Jinen-Ryu, and Goju-Kai, given Trias' connections and friendships with people in those styles. He altered them, of course, and added things he took from lots of different systems, and not just karate styles, so it's kind of a weird hodgepodge of stuff. I will say, though, that the basics, kata, and "bunkai" all looks like your typical JKA stuff. Everything from the ridiculously long range (which makes sense with 3 foot long swords), to the one-hit-kill mentality, to the kiai every time you strike, all lends itself to the Kendo connection.
With regard to the Shorin-Ryu that I practice, it has been admittedly Japanified to a degree. The founder of the Shorinkan (my organization) was a senior student of Chibana Chosin, but was also well indoctrinated by the Japanese military, and so I believe there was a decent amount of crossover. In the Shorinkan dojo, you will see the more militaristic practices you see in Japanese karate, even though it is on Okinawa. The basics and kata are still Okinawan, though, and haven't been expanded and exaggerated like they have in mainland Japan. Some of the long range stuff has snuck in, though. Of course, every dojo is different, so sparring is hard to judge across the organization. The founder of the organization banned kumite in his dojo after a member died in a tournament in the mid-90's. Some schools only do JKA or WKF point kumite. Some schools do knockdown. Some do MMA-style sparring. Some, like us, do a variety of sparring methods to cover an array of situations and skillsets, some of which is that long range, kendo-inspired stuff.
This arrangement is just one of the things that I admire about the Shidokan style founded by Yoshiji Soeno. They do knockdown/bare knuckle Karate, kickboxing and submission grappling but they have separate formats for sparring between the three of them. Also, I know that there is another organization that is called Shidokan but they have nothing to do with Soeno's style/organization. I do know that there actual style is Shorin-ryu and I think the Honbu of that particular organization is in Okinawa, but I could be wrong about that. Do you know anything about those guys and how they approach kumite?
Yes, the Shidokan on Okinawa is Miyahira Katsuya Sensei's organization--he was the other senior student of Chibana, along with Nakazato Shugoro (who founded my organization). I can't say for certain how they do things, because they are a different organization, but their curriculum is very similar to ours, given that it mostly came from the same teacher. From what I have seen of their material, I like it, and it doesn't have a very strong Kendo influence from what I can see. As with our organization, though, some schools train more effectively than others.
In Poland they say "it's darkest under the lamp", meaning we often don't notice the obvious staring us in the face.
Plain as day on Gigo Funakoshi's wiki page:
"Through his teaching position and understanding of Japanese martial arts, Gigō became the technical creator of modern shotokan karate.
While the ancient arts of To-de and shuri-te emphasized the use and development of the upper body, open hand attacks, short distances, joint locks, basic grappling, pressure point striking and use of the front kick and variations of it, Gigō developed long distance striking techniques using the low stances found in old style kendo and Iaido kata.
Another big changement of Gigo was the introduction of the Kiba Dachi instead of Shiko Dachi and implementing the Kokutsu Dachi (which he took from japanese classical fencing or "kenjutsu") instead of Neko Ashi Dachi stance in Shotokan Kata.
Gigō's kumite (fighting) style was to strike hard and fast, using low stances and long attacks, chained techniques and foot sweeps (taken from old style Kendo and Judo). Integration of these changes into the Shotokan style immediately separated Shotokan from Okinawan karate."
TL/DR: Indeed, Gigo's fascination with Kendo changed Shotokan Karate drastically.
One final thought on the subject that came to my mind recently. It's fairly obvious but an eye-opener if you hadn't thought about it.
Q: Why was "incorrect" bunkai passed down in Japan for so long without anyone ever questioning it?
A: Karate (along with the flawed bunkai) was introduced into schools and the military. Two places where questioning your teacher's methods is very much frowned upon (especially in Japan). It's not that students didn't have doubts - they just couldn't voice them.
This cultural phenomenon (senpai-kohai system) was then "exported" from Japan as part of the Karate tradition itself, again barring the more inquisitive students from finding the original bunkai, even in the West.
To reinforce the above, here's a quote from renowned Karate scholar Patrick McCarthy:
(...) kata were never originally developed to impart the actual lesson, but rather to culminate that which had already been taught; and not just as a creative exposition of physical prowess. This, I believe changed, and quite radically so, when the attention of kata shifted from the classical one-on-one, or small group-style instruction, to drilling huge groups of students in the schoolyards of turn-of-the century Okinawa. There, kata were simplified and became the principal vehicle used in fostering physical fitness and social conformity in Okinawa’s school system in support of the war machine during Japan’s radical period of military escalation. The way kata is learned in modern/traditional karate traces its lineage back to this crucible, a time when the practice evolved from an art of self-defence into a form of callisthenics. Through the senpai~kohai system and a lack of critical thinking, imitative behaviour and the trickle down effect, has perpetuated kata as the enigma of karatedo.
As for why the same wasn't questioned in the West...
(...) The accepted norm then was quite simple; “If you weren’t Japanese [e.g., Chinese, Korean, or some kind of oriental, etc,], and or the elected official representative of a particular style,” you really weren’t taken seriously. All throughout that entire era the so-called Japanese master was never ever challenged to pressure-test the terribly incongruous and highly dysfunctional practices being passed off as, “original,” “authentic” and “effective!” Moreover, if for some reason, the learner was incapable of getting such rule-bound drills to work, then it was deemed the learners fault, based upon [and however nicely it was conveyed], “their own lack of understanding and or inability to perform at the required level of competency, etc.” Simply put, no one within the traditional karate community ever “rocked the boat” for fear of being criticized, dishonored and or ostracized.
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