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I've watched this a few times over the years, and every single time I always think Reyes won the first 3 rounds. I honestly don't see much of an argument for Jon winning any of those.
Rewatch Jon Jones vs Dominick Reyes
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Well fook me, I'm sucked back into this & you make a great point that "aggression" from the outside might had over-come Jonez domination of teh center of teh cage under the Texas judging criteria. (I'm doubting it atm, but I'll take another look) I honestly didn't study that particular aspect of it, as much as the common understanding that holding the center was considered a top form of aggression. It is for sure... but to what degree is that? I'll take a look just to be sure & get back to ya.
I'm actually a big believer that Nic won vs Condit... which is kind of a similar discussion, though I've never compared the 2 fights. It just kind of reminds me of this discussion & I think the outside aggression was just being "over-emphasized" at that time because it was a new thing... but I digress that it's been forever since I reviewed that one.
so I'mma have to watch this fookeh wit Jonez/Reyes again to see what's what & I'll get back to ya.
My narrative never changed since I re-watched teh fight right after it happened. I've always felt like Jones won under this rool set... but I'll keep your flag points in mind regarding how people have shifted their narrative regarding teh first few roundz... while I review teh fight.
It's been so long since I seen it that it will be like watching a new fight... fook it... I'm about to dig in!!!
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Sorry my guy, I meant to make that edit a broader point, not a personal accusation. I note in a later post more specifically the differing opinion of the arguments for Jones and how wide and different they've been over time just don't add up to me as a consistent unanimous point. I hope I didn't come off pointing the finger at you and I apologize if I did
If you're reviewing it with points in mind, here's a little stat post I did back in the day, dripping with my usual sarcasm, when someone tried to compare this decision as not as much a robbery as GSP-Hendricks.
Could I have been thinking of GSP vs Hendricks?
Hmm..?
Nah, I am thinking of Jones-Reyes.
You wanna talk about close rounds? Which rounds went to Jon exactly, cuz I'm confused.
I give Jon 2 rounds, but which 3rd should I give him? They all just look so delicious.
See, this is what a split looks like.
Hmm, maybe the stats will clear things up.
Yup, those definitely look like close rounds. Total strikes and attempetd volume vs significant strikes are similar or flipped, control time with takedowns split attention. Makes sense.
Ok, so we can identify close rounds. Let's see the close rounds with Jones
You see in the first 3 rounds, the significant strikes are all so clo..
DOM +6
DOM +11
DOM +7
..wait no. Well, even if the significant strikes have a wide margin, I'm sure the total strikes and attempted volume must have made up the diff..
DOM +6 / +32
DOM +11 / +31
DOM +7 / +11
..oh no. I mean, where the strikes land is important too, so maybe Dom was just doing legwork while Jon surpassed him in combined head & body strikes to close the ga-
DOM +11
DOM +10
DOM +8
shit.. Well, Jon is one of the best wrestlers in MMA, I'm sure his successful takedowns and control time stole some ro-
JON 0/2 0 sec
JON 0/0 0 sec
JON 0/2 15 sec
... Oh... Well, there's always a difference of power and clean connections. Maybe the biggest moments of the rounds were Jones'? If you take a look at the UFC's post-round highlights in round 3, I'm sure we'll fin-
Ah.. yeah, no. I don't think there's much of an argument that Jones should have won.
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I caught your vibe my brotheh... & I'm actually enjoying teh re-watch.
It's so hard to go by any fan data... for one because fanz don't know how to score fights in general... but also, much less under an odd rool-set like texas had... so I'll take another close look & let you know what I think.
Impressive post... & well done. Although, I'm a HUGE proponent that teh "un-official significant strike count" (there is no "official" count) is useless in any debate on who won. They don't distinguish between hard & soft & they're done live by a guy sitting cage side with clickerz.
I've went through fight roundz for hours with slow-mo, rewind, & all the time in the world at my disposal to do very precise counts of strikes. Those un-official numbers have yet to even be close. I like how you caveated that point, but those numbers are such a joke that it's not even worth mentioning imo. I'm not willing to do a full on "slow-mo/rewind & calculate" study of this like I have others, but lets see what I come up with after another viewing.
Just finished R1... & I'm 97.9% sure Reyes won that under any rool-set!
To be continued... per your data, it looks like 2&3 are teh pivital roundz. If Jones won even one of them by holding teh center, then that looks like a wrap.
...to be continued...
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I hate it too. I mean, even something as simple as Blaydes Aspinall, which only lasted like 15 seconds, they were off on. That's why I only try to use them as a sort of broad scope of things and then further demonstrate the actual efficacy of the strikes. It's pretty impossible to paint a full picture of all that goes into MMA scoring without finding something the other guy excelled on, but I think this is a case where Jon excelled on almost nothing over Dom.
Well how hold on. Again, I don't think it was the cage control that gave people points back in the day, it was just the general aggression. Volume especially was the thing that was notoriously overscored, regardless of landing, which is why I think even with the old scoring system, that only benefits Dom further.Just finished R1... & I'm 97.9% sure Reyes won that under any rool-set!
To be continued... per your data, it looks like 2&3 are teh pivital roundz. If Jones won even one of them by holding teh center, then that looks like a wrap.
...to be continued...
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How is this 4-year old fight still at the top of the threads after 2 days, lol? Bones Jones lives rent-free in a lot of heads I guess.
And maybe because the next big fight (Poirier vs. Islam) probably won't be a close, contested fight like Jones-Reyes. Outside a small puncher's chance, Islam appears to be a terrible match-up for Dustin.
And maybe because the next big fight (Poirier vs. Islam) probably won't be a close, contested fight like Jones-Reyes. Outside a small puncher's chance, Islam appears to be a terrible match-up for Dustin.
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The judging criteria is EFFECTIVE striking, not volume of striking. There's an argument to be made that Jones's strikes were more effective in at least one of the first three rounds.
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As we agreed upon prior, Reyes 1, & jones 4&5 are not disputable. The question is R2 & 3, & I spent way more time watching 2 than I intended to spend today.. lol... but here'z what I found.
Remember Texas had a high value in their judging for aggression. which holding the center of the octagon was valued highly & needs to be counted. you countered that Reyes did enough aggressive striking from the outside to make up for him giving up the center... but upon review, I disagree.
- R2 & R3 was close enough that it's not a robbery either way. Under Texas rools, I give both rounds to Jones. (the 2nd being the closer of the 2) but I'd give both to Reyes under the Unified rools.
Reyes clearly won teh first minute even under Texas rools for that super aggressive "attempt" at the end of teh 1st minute. That flurry where he was chasing jon, looked more impressive than it had actual "strikes landed", (not sure he landed any of them) but he does get a lot of credit in Texas for the aggression. However, he was on his heals most of that first minute & only did that in about 15 seconds, & then took a step off of that gas after the first minute & spent a lot of time dancing around the outside (recovering) which negated that aggressive advantage & I being generous to Reyes for that one 15 second burst... I had "aggression" scored about even by mid round despite that extreme display. (note: I don't like the texas aggression scoring & it's so subjective, but I can see how that could be the case.)
There-after, they both got solid strikes & maybe Reyes was slightly ahead on that front, but Jon was pulling ahead by holding the center. An argument could be made that Reyes stole that round at the very end with a couple of nice strikes. They weren't earth shattering, but they were pretty solid... and maybe that could be said to negate his dancing on the outside. I'd say that it was close enough that there was no robbery either way.
This is one of those rounds that would be best to review with slow motion & rewind, so to try & see exactly what landed & what didn't. So much happened that was hard to tell. In addition to little stuff, we do know Reyes landed 2 hard leg kicks & a good hook to the mellon in the last minute while Jones landed a good body kick and maybe a melon shot, but it's hard to say.
It was close, but this thing about how Texas weighs "owning the center" was very clearly won by Jones, & Reyes didn't have enough aggression throughout the round nor heavy strikes in order to negate that. (imo) It was close though, even under Texas rools.
Under Unified rools though, I'd give that round to Reyes. Under Texas roolz, I give it Jones.
There-after, they both got solid strikes & maybe Reyes was slightly ahead on that front, but Jon was pulling ahead by holding the center. An argument could be made that Reyes stole that round at the very end with a couple of nice strikes. They weren't earth shattering, but they were pretty solid... and maybe that could be said to negate his dancing on the outside. I'd say that it was close enough that there was no robbery either way.
This is one of those rounds that would be best to review with slow motion & rewind, so to try & see exactly what landed & what didn't. So much happened that was hard to tell. In addition to little stuff, we do know Reyes landed 2 hard leg kicks & a good hook to the mellon in the last minute while Jones landed a good body kick and maybe a melon shot, but it's hard to say.
It was close, but this thing about how Texas weighs "owning the center" was very clearly won by Jones, & Reyes didn't have enough aggression throughout the round nor heavy strikes in order to negate that. (imo) It was close though, even under Texas rools.
Under Unified rools though, I'd give that round to Reyes. Under Texas roolz, I give it Jones.
Such fun sorting through this!
R3 - was more of the same as 2, except that Reyes didn't have a major meaningful burst of aggression in the 3rd like he did in the 2nd. Meanwhile, in addition to holding the center... jones had the stronger rallies for aggression with his TD attempts which put Reyes on full defense... which is a big no no in Texas. "no can defense."
Again, I'd give the nod to Reyes for the stronger strikes under the unified rools where jon's TD attempts & holding the center would count for 0... but in Texas, aggression meanz a lot & Reyes didn't outstrike Jon by enough of a margin for this to be considered a robbery.
Teh 3rd was much clearer regarding aggression for Jon than the 2nd imo. Both rounds were close enough in Texas that there was no robberry. I agree it's a dated rool-set, but it is the roolset they fought under.
As ridiculous as this seems, we actually see this same dynamic happening with judges under the Unified Rools. WAY TOO OFTEN... we see wrestlers holding someone down without doing a fooking thing with it, & they end up winning a round that they were clearly out struck in.
This is no more of a robbery than those countless examples... except that these other modern day examples were supposed to be judged under a rool-set that doesn't count "aggression." it's been an endless source of stress for me watching this happen, so now that we're discussing an event that actually is commissioned to score "aggressiveness..." it shouldn't be that big of a surprise.
Just imagine all that time where reyes was on the outside moving, as if he was laying on his back. For sure a guy can outstrike the other off his back... but somehow most judges will still give the nod to the asshole laying on top not doing jack shit. This is the same conversation, except that jones actually was returning fire. It was close... for sure, but it wasn't so close that the "aggression" was negated.
Fook me, I spent way more time on this than I intended, but there it is.
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No Jon, you lost
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Well there's your problem. Watch the whole fight.
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I agree, people are blinded by the hate…
Plus if you are Jon, it’s hard to get too motivated to fight long-neck computer guy when you have beaten legend on legend already.
Right man won.
Did he though? First one went to Reyes. 2nd one went to Reyes, but watching it again, it wasn't as one sided as I had initially thought. Reyes pressured and hit more, but it wasn't as one sided. Many of his hits weren't clean hits either. Hits to the body, kicks to the body... That while successful and shows out striking advantage, JJ showed no signs of damage or feeling hurt or wabbling over any of the body shots. In round 3, Reyes still out struck JJ, but JJ managed to pressure more and control better the momentum in regards to cage control. Some hits were Reyes going to the body with straight punches trying to move Jon away from getting him close to the ropes, but didn't affect JJ in a visible way at all. JJ hits seemed to have more of a power into them in terms of cleaning shot. The cleanest one landed by Reyes was an uppercut when JJ got close to him. Clean shot yeah. Jones landed good elbows and punches. I don't think Reyes should absolutely get the 3rd round because out striking with many hits being to the body with no indication JJ was getting bothered and affected by those hits, at least showed no visible signs, with JJ putting in a higher pressure and landing arguably cleaner shots could make him the winner of that just as easily as Reyes could.
Still, when JJ got the best of Reyes in round 4 and 5, I think Reyes' demeanor when being pressured counts quite a bit too. He was avoiding fighting sometimes, like getting away from Jones, moving away and not getting too close more... Like, avoiding getting into a all out right... While in the 2 early rounds, JJ got outperformed, but was still constantly seeking the fight and to get into the exchanges. He moved away when Reyes got into a blitz, but that's to be expected, and he would move his head, shoulders and avoid most of the hard punches or clean punches, that maybe weren't even landed, in those blitzing moments.
No, point was that the 3rd round was debatable... Out striking isn't the only way to evaluate a fight. And by the championship rounds, I mean more in the way JJ and Reyes acted when in the losing side... With Jones still looking for the exchanges and Reyes more like buying time since he hadn't the energy anymore... Plus, unlike with Jone when Reyes hit his body, you could see in the later rounds when JJ kicked his body in similar ways, his reaction of feeling those would be more apparent, like giving a deep breath, as Joe Rogan said during the fight.
I disagree since the 3rd round is contestable, much like in the Jones vs Gustafsson fight. Those were hard rounds to evaluate. Which, given each of the fighters condition by the end of the fighting, in which stamina administration and game plan is something that may warrant attention, I don't think in a contested round like the 3rd one, which was close with different interpretations, JJ's win is a woahhh robbery at all... Even in the round Reyes won clearly, the 2nd round more precisely, do you see that big of a dominance? Seems a lot more like that wow he's giving JJ a fucking hard time, who would imagine it?? rather than being seen under closer lens... Which imo shows he did better, but nowhere near a level of total dominance. If I could score that round with decimals, I'd give Reyes a 10/9.3 for example.
First round -- 10/9 Reyes
2nd round -- 10/9.3 Reyes
3rd round -- 10/10 -- close
4th round -- 10/9 Jones
5th round -- 10/9 Jones
48.3 vs 48.0 .... Lulz.
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Edit: i missunderstood you buddy. I remove
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