Iraq federal forces vs Kurdish forces thread

[HomerThompson]

Whether or not Iraq is a failed state or even a viable one is not the point I'm trying to make.

My point is that since we invaded Iraq, our policy since the Bush administration has recognized Iraq as one country, and the capital of that country is Baghdad. Show me where Obama or Trump has said otherwise. Show me where we told the Kurds: you help us with ISIS, we help you become independent.

If you think that is wrong, fine. If you think Iraq should be broken up, fine. If you disagree with current US policy, fine. But show me when has the US Government ever publicly stated that Iraq is not a real country and Baghdad is not its capital. Because as far as I can tell, modern Iraq came to being in 1958 and Baghdad has been its capital since then.

I'm pretty sure our multiple invasions, and overthrow of their government show that we don't respect the territorial integrity of Iraq. That's just a stupid thing to say.

If you want to say that we're going to leave the Kurds hanging again, I would agree with you.

 

[lecter]

I love how conflicts like this are always treated like a football match, where we 'watch' from behind our monitors and root for one team.
That's not an accusation or something, I do the same.
The "live coverage" of the anti-Erdogan coup was hilarious.

 

[Undying Poster]

I'm pretty sure our multiple invasions, and overthrow of their government show that we don't respect the territorial integrity of Iraq. That's just a stupid thing to say.

If you want to say that we're going to leave the Kurds hanging again, I would agree with you.

We never broke Iraq up, what we don't respect is Iraq's sovereignty, according to our multiple invasions

 

[Gervinho]

Do we really consider a bunch of suicide bombers in armored cars as an army? Lol

whatever it takes to do damage, thats their motto and the others know these fuckers will go all the way no problem. They have nothing to live for

 

[Fronk]

They got balls though, a couple thousand of them sent the Iraqi army running away in Mosul.

The situation was a little more complex than the "cowardly Iraqi" meme that gets passed around. The people of Mosul welcomed ISIS in and the army in Mosul was mostly made up of the same people. To them it was a "sunni liberation movement" and many influential Iraqi Sunnis refused to aknowledge it as anything else for a long time.

 

[lecter]

Seems without u.s air their vastly overhyped fighters esp as we supplied iraqi army heavy weapons but not the kurds

Of course the Kurds' combat power leaves much to be desired, I don't know where people got the idea from that they are some sort of elite squad or something.
They have a lot of virtually untrained people who simply grabbed a gun and joined the battle.
I mean we sent Euros to train them, who later said that they lack any understanding of modern military tactics etc
Apart from that, I'm not sure how much of a benefit training from Dutch soldiers (or whatever) is.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Whether or not Iraq is a failed state or even a viable one is not the point I'm trying to make.

My point is that since we invaded Iraq, our policy since the Bush administration has recognized Iraq as one country, and the capital of that country is Baghdad. Show me where Obama or Trump has said otherwise. Show me where we told the Kurds: you help us with ISIS, we help you become independent.

If you think that is wrong, fine. If you think Iraq should be broken up, fine. If you disagree with current US policy, fine. But show me when has the US Government ever publicly stated that Iraq is not a real country and Baghdad is not its capital. Because as far as I can tell, modern Iraq came to being in 1958 and Baghdad has been its capital since then.

That's all true, I just think its not the smartest policy. Why try to maintain a fiction when on the ground the reality is different? That doesn't mean give in to all the Kurds' demands but recognize the changes on the ground that have happened over the last quarter century.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Of course the Kurds' combat power leaves much to be desired, I don't know where people got the idea from that they are some sort of elite squad or something.
They have a lot of virtually untrained people who simply grabbed a gun and joined the battle.
I mean we sent Euros to train them, who later said that they lack any understanding of modern military tactics etc
Apart from that, I'm not sure how much of a benefit training from Dutch soldiers (or whatever) is.

The difference seems to be more related to morale. Like @Fronk said earlier, many Sunnis in the army didn't care to fight against ISIS and saw them as the lesser evil when compared to the government in Baghdad. That morale disparity can make all the difference and it shouldn't be discounted even if the difference in tactics is minimal. People who are willing to fight and die for a given territory, its institutions, and people can be trusted far more than those who would abandon them at the drop of a hat.

 

[lecter]

The difference seems to be more related to moral. Like @Fronk said earlier, many Sunnis in the army didn't care to fight against ISIS and saw them as the lesser evil when compared to the government in Baghdad. That morale disparity can make all the difference and it shouldn't be discounted even if the difference in tactics is minimal. People who are willing to fight and die for a given territory, its institutions, and people can be trusted far more than those who would abandon them at the drop of a hat.

Sure, I assume that goes hand in hand.
With fewer modern weapon systems, air strikes etc., moral and will to combat become even more significant.
What I'm saying, it's not like they have a highly capable army or something. It's more like an armed militia.
Now, I don't know a lot about the Iraqi federal forces but if a NATO army like Turkey for instance decided to invade their territory, and utilized artillery, missiles, bombers, modern tanks etc. that wouldn't be much of a fight.

 

[lecter]

Maybe we should take it to the next level and make bets in the official WR bet thread.

 

[carlos cadona]

The Kurds talked so much shit to the Iraqi's for running away and leaving equipment behind in Mosul, I don't they'll be saying it anymore considering what happened in Kirkuk today. It's all the KDP's fault for including disputed areas in that referendum, they basically forced Iraq's hand.

 

[Rholk]

Of course the Kurds' combat power leaves much to be desired, I don't know where people got the idea from that they are some sort of elite squad or something.
They have a lot of virtually untrained people who simply grabbed a gun and joined the battle.
I mean we sent Euros to train them, who later said that they lack any understanding of modern military tactics etc
Apart from that, I'm not sure how much of a benefit training from Dutch soldiers (or whatever) is.

I don't think it really would have mattered who you would have sent there. After like 6 weeks of handling an m16 every fucking day they would still manage to put rounds backwards into their magazines, its quite amazing. But yeah any attempt at real tactical scenario training was pretty much futile

 

[lecter]

I don't think it really would have mattered who you would have sent there. After like 6 weeks of handling an m16 every fucking day they would still manage to put rounds backwards into their magazines, its quite amazing. But yeah any attempt at real tactical scenario training was pretty much futile

I didn't mean to insult anybody, I meant it quite literally: I don't know how much of a benefit it is, I don't know a lot about European armed forces.
They obviously know how to handle modern equipment and I guess there are some training standards for NATO armies but a lot of these nations aren't very militaristic and their soldiers naturally don't have a lot of combat experience.

 

[Rholk]

I didn't mean to insult anybody, I meant it quite literally: I don't know how much of a benefit it is, I don't know a lot about European armed forces.
They obviously know how to handle modern equipment and I guess there are some training standards for NATO armies but a lot of these nations aren't very militaristic and their soldiers naturally don't have a lot of combat experience.

You're not wrong, they might just aswell have sent anyone with any weapons experience there imo.
Just an easy way for cheapass countries like mine to tag along

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I didn't mean to insult anybody, I meant it quite literally: I don't know how much of a benefit it is, I don't know a lot about European armed forces.
They obviously know how to handle modern equipment and I guess there are some training standards for NATO armies but a lot of these nations aren't very militaristic and their soldiers naturally don't have a lot of combat experience.

Considering they can't even do jumping jacks I probably could train them as the bar is really low.
Yes there are NATO standards and possibly they have Iraq/Afghanistan veterans training them. Any NATO military can offer much better training than they usually get.

 

[lecter]

You're not wrong, they might just aswell have sent anyone with any weapons experience there imo.
Just an easy way for cheapass countries like mine to tag along

What made it so difficult to train them?

 

[Sauron]

The best fighters in iraq is the isis fighters. I know people dont like to hear it. But they have the most drdicated soldiers

They are certainly zealous.

But I don't think they are the best. They are just suicidal and will fight wanting to die. When they've come up against the best Iraqi and Syrian units they've had their ass kicked.

 

[Sauron]

Why though? Its a failed state

Is it a failed state?

Iraq has a functioning government and is on the verge of purging ISIS from its territory.

Somalia is a failed state. Iraq is not, whether or not you think the country will stay together long term.

 

[DariusTheGreat]

Of course the Kurds' combat power leaves much to be desired, I don't know where people got the idea from that they are some sort of elite squad or something.
They have a lot of virtually untrained people who simply grabbed a gun and joined the battle.
I mean we sent Euros to train them, who later said that they lack any understanding of modern military tactics etc
Apart from that, I'm not sure how much of a benefit training from Dutch soldiers (or whatever) is.

lol the kurds actually believe that idea that they're some sort of elite force on par with western armies. They make videos to showcase that

 

[DariusTheGreat]

They are certainly zealous.

But I don't think they are the best. They are just suicidal and will fight wanting to die. When they've come up against the best Iraqi and Syrian units they've had their ass kicked.

I think you forgot to mention that these Syrian and Iraqi units have either Russian or US air-power behind them so its not really a good comparison.