Intermittent fasting bro's gtfih

To clarify
Fasting decreases gallbladder movement, which causes the bile to become over concentrated with cholesterol and thus causes gallstones
 
I hard fast for 18 hrs
Noon till six is my eating window

Nothing but coffee in the IF window
Plan is to cut coffee soon
 
Afaik the only evidence against evening eating is circumstantial. They found that people who eat late at night are more likely to be fat and unhealthy. But that's very likely because obese slobs binge at night, thus creating that correlation, not that eating at night has a causation effect on these problems.

If you think about ancestral humans, eating food around a fire in the evening after a long day of hunting would have been a normal day at work. It's possible that eating in the evening has a small negative effect, but I doubt it's significant.
 
shunyata said:
Given how the term xenobiotic is actually used in real life microbiology, using it to describe moderate coffee consumption outs the speaker pretty hard as an expert in nothing more than bro science.

Do the same people argue that other naturally occurring low calorie stimulants like cocaine and ephedrine break the fasted state?


You have to realize that this is a field with a massive amount of pseudoscience penetration in it.

To blindly follow "expert testimony" without reviewing methodology and how people arrive at conclusions is unscientific. It's believing religiously in the expert.

Also, Dr Patrick isn't even 40 and is not considered a "leader in the field" or an "expert on fasting physiology" by any source I've ever seen other than her own commercial for profit website. She has a PhD, and she's working for another Dr on their research team. That's about it.

You also seem quite ignorant of the fact that many things in the scientific community are pretty heavily debated. There is a great deal of disagreement in emerging fields which is a part of why when there is a consensus you know that has been tested to Hell and back.

There is no scientific consensus that zero calorie unsweetened (including non sugar sweeteners like aspartame, xylitol etc) stimulant beverages disturb or break a fasted state.

It's a hypothesis that has not yet been proven. When it's been proven over and over again in research then you can toss it around as if it were a fact.

But right now you're just spreading the unproven hypothetical conjecture of a young PhD still working on their post doc work and pretending that just because she was on a Rogan podcast she's a trusted expert in metabolic physiology.


Furthermore Dr Patrick was asked to provide a source for her claim on twitter and refused to answer the question or provide sources to support her hypothesis.



So, do you know of any data that supports her made up hypothesis? Because she hasn't put any forward.


Fucking A, Alex Jones had more data to support his absurd gay frog claim (the frogs in question were actually observed switching genders due to environmental pollution).
Click to expand...


Hey-- back it the fuck up. Dr. Rhonda Patrick didn't go to Huckster Medical school just to be bullied on a human c0ck fighting message board. Now give her some respect.
 
One can and one does
I've never relied on it anyway and its never really been a big thing for me
Wouldn't even drink a dozen cups a week
 
Start with a decent eating window
Maybe start at 14 fast 10 eat
Then 16-8...18-6.
Keep the diet good as well
Dont go binging on shite.
 
Also I think Rhonda Patrick's position comes from the interview with Dr Sachin Panda: https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/satchin-round-2

I think as well Dr Panda focuses more on time restricted eating and setting circadian rhythms based on eating and light exposure.


  • Rhonda: Very cool and interesting. The other thing that is sort of on this whole fasting versus TRE topic that gets asked a lot that I have to ask you has to do with coffee. Actually, specifically caffeine, like black coffee. So without any cream or any calories or anything like that. So caffeine can start things, like the clocks in your liver?
  • Satchin: Yeah, it resets the clock. Because the clock is always running, it just resets.
  • Rhonda: It resets it, okay. So a lot of people in the intermittent fasting community, they do a lot of fasting, whether, you know, they're fasting for 16, 24 hours, 48 hours, but they drink caffeine and they notice that they lose weight. And so they say, "Well, I'm still getting results."
  • Satchin: Yeah.
  • Rhonda: You know, "So it's fine, I can drink my black coffee."
  • Satchin: Yeah.
  • Rhonda: You know, obviously someone that's fasting for 48 hours, it's very different than doing the TRE schedule where you're eating for 10 hours a day or 11 hours a day, and then fasting for, you know, 13 or 14 hours every night, right?
  • Satchin: Yeah.
  • Rhonda: So if a person, for example, that wakes up in the morning drinks black coffee at 7:00 a.m. They wake up, have some black coffee at 7:00 a.m. But they don't eat anything, they don't eat their first bite of food until...
  • Satchin: 10:00 or 11:00.
  • Rhonda: Yeah. Yeah, something. Then when do they have to stop eating by? Like, is it when the coffee started or is it when they ate the food?
  • Satchin: Yeah, so this is a question we also get through the app a lot. And we actually posted a blog on our website. So here is a very different thing. So since we look at circadian rhythm as a whole, it has a sleep component, food component, exercise or activity component. And we know that caffeine resets the body clock. So, for example, drinking a cup of coffee is similar to having exposure to bright light for an hour or hour and a half. So that's just on the circadian clock itself. Now the question is, "Well, will it reset that clock the same way if the coffee comes in the morning versus evening or night?" And we know that there is a term called phase response curve. So that means the same light, it relates to light. The same light will reset the clock differently at different times of the day. During daytime when your system is expecting light, if you're in a dark room and we see light it doesn't reset our clock. But in nighttime it will reset our clock. So we don't know what is the phase response curve for coffee, whether it resets much more at certain times and less at other times. The direct impact of coffee on clock is unknown. Then the second thing that relates to coffee is sleep because coffee definitely suppresses sleep in a lot of people, some people may be resistant. And the reason why we drink coffee is we wake up, we get up from the bed, but we maybe are still feeling sleepy. We want to get that extra energy, that's why we drink coffee. And along that line, of course, drinking coffee at night is a straight no-no because it will have impact on sleep. But in the morning we ask the other question, "Are you drinking coffee because you did not rest well, you did not rest enough?" So maybe that's why you need coffee to reset your mental clock, or brain clock, to start it. And sometimes it can be just a pure habit or addiction. For example, I used to like coffee in the morning, and then I realized, "Well, let's get rid of coffee. What happens?" Maybe for the first two or three days I got a headache, and then now I'm used to drinking just hot water. It's just the feeling of sipping something from a sippy cup. It's almost like a baby sipping something from a sippy cup. And I realized that that's what I was addicted to. I can actually substitute coffee with hot water and nothing changed. I still felt energetic after my hot water and I realized that that was my addiction.
  • Rhonda: After you got over the...
  • Satchin: After I got over the first two days of headache.
  • Rhonda: ...withdraw.
  • Satchin: Yeah, withdraw symptoms. And then it's always [Inaudible] the question of metabolism. When we drink coffee, is it going to trigger metabolism or certain things in our gut so that the gut will think, "Well, now I have to start working, the rest is over"? And we think that's where the metabolism or the function of the gut to absorb, or digest this coffee, send that caffeine to liver, and then to brain does kick start right after we drink coffee. Because that's how we are feeling the effect of coffee in the rest our body, because the stomach started working, it absorbed coffee, it sent it to liver, liver might have metabolized it slightly and started to send it to the rest of the brain and body. And then it gets back to kidney, it gets metabolized and excreted. So then the question is, forget about circadian clock, now if we think about just metabolism and, say, mitochondria function, or even, say, go back to autophagy, and then ask, "Is caffeine breaking the fasting so that it stops autophagy, or it stops something else? Or is there a crosstalk between, say, caffeine receptor and glucagon receptor so that it does?" No, fasting is kind of slightly over. You may not be in 100% fast, but in 40% or 50% fast. So that's where things become murky, so that's why we say, "Well, if you can, drink your coffee within this 8-hour, 10-hour, it's better." But at the same time we know, going back to the study that we discussed, Ruth Patterson study, they did not consider coffee as food. So when they considered 13 hours overnight fasting, that 13 hours actually included coffee and tea. So in that we know for cancer, reducing breast cancer risk, this 13 hours of fasting can include coffee, black coffee, and tea. So this is where things are really murky. And we tend to error on the safe side, so we tell, well, if you can have that coffee within your eating window, that's much better. If you can't, then just have black coffee. At least that will not trigger your insulin response or glucose response. So that's what we do, we recommend.
  • Rhonda: Just sort of as a side note because you mentioned it, I recently spoke with Dr. Guido Kroemer, who is an expert on autophagy, and he was telling me about a study he had published a few years ago where the specific polyphenols in coffee, decaf or caffeinated... So irrespective of caffeine, it's just it's the polyphenols.
  • Satchin: Yeah.
  • Rhonda: They triggered protein de-acidulation, which is one of the triggers for autophagy. So it actually increased autophagy.
  • Satchin: Increased autophagy, yeah. So that's why we never know, because coffee, or any natural compound, has so many different ingredients that we don't know the activity.
  • Rhonda: Yeah.
  • Satchin: And many of them can have very different effects. When we think of food, we have mostly...the nutrition science, or most of the scientists, are latched onto the effect of protein, carbohydrates, and fat. We discount a lot of xenobiotic. And actually our food is, the majority of it is xenobiotic.
  • Rhonda: Right.
  • Satchin: And we have no idea what do they do, either alone or in combination.
  • Rhonda: Right. And that actually...that's another question. I printed out some, but that is a question that's frequently asked by people in the audience. Is, like, things that are xenobiotic, like herbal tea, even, I guess, to some degree people are asking about flavored water. So water that would contain, for example, like or stevia or something, you know, does that start the clock? And I think you've kind of answered that a little bit.
  • Satchin: Yeah. So in that way it may not stop the clock and, also, for your insulin response it's not actually triggering the pancreas to secrete extra insulin. You know, insulin is an anabolic hormone, so it's not actually putting our body into a strong anabolic drive. So in that way, in many ways, it's okay to have this non-calorie-containing food. But then it gets murkier once we go to, say, Diet Coke or something else where there is artificial sweetener, and then we know that the artificial sweeteners have an impact on gut microbiome. And that's where things become murky.
  • Rhonda: Right.
  • Satchin: And these are very practical questions, but at the same time we don't foresee that even there will be any controlled clinical trial to assess the effect of these nutraceuticals or even things that we take for granted on a daily basis. So this is where, again, the N of one experiment, self-experimentation of yourself, trying different kinds of behavior intervention where you switch from water to flavored water and does it make you feel different. I mean it's not only weight gain. One has to assess sleep, activity, feeling alert, feeling productive.
  • Rhonda: Maybe measuring your fasting blood glucose levels.
  • Satchin: Blood glucose level if you have a continuous glucose monitoring system.
  • Rhonda: Right, even better.
  • Satchin: And so this is where strongly this self-experimentation by informed citizens who are very careful, they're not really...they don't have any adverse metabolic disease. And, again, I'm not promoting that everyone should start doing self-experimentation
 
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^^ So in a nutshell, "We're not sure of anything when it comes to coffee". Pretty different than "Coffee breaks the fast!", huh. I don't know this lady but she sounds like a hack.
 
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