GSP is GOAT, and it's not even close: A lazy Sunday morning coffee discussion

[grimballer]

who were to top 3 in their class when fedor fought them?

Nogueira, Crocop?

Who were top 3 in their class when gsp fought them?

Hughes, Fitch, Shields, Condit, Alves, Koscheck, Trigg,

i already said gsp is not a good finisher as fedor, are you going to tell me fedor's opponents are as good as GSP?

if you want to say fedor is more exciting, you're not gonna get an argument from me

if you want to say objectively fedor has a better resume and overall body of work, that's just being obtuse

Well you could argue Being undeafeated close to 10 years with a record of 31-1 > decisioning top ww during 6 years run n a record of 25-2

 

[wlu.29]

Well you could argue Being undeafeated close to 10 years with a record of 31-1 > decisioning top ww during 6 years run n a record of 25-2

Except ww has always been one of the toughest division while hw has historically been shallow

Anyways you value finish even if it's lesser opponents

I value the strength of opponents and how they perform

Mma is a volatile sport where one punch can end the fight and not necessarily the better fighter will win

Decisions might be boring to you but they show that through the course of the entire fight there's domination, and no there's no doubt Gsp dominated his opponents and rendered them impotent

 

[gspieler]

Except ww has always been one of the toughest division while hw has historically been shallow

Anyways you value finish even if it's lesser opponents

I value the strength of opponents and how they perform

Mma is a volatile sport where one punch can end the fight and not necessarily the better fighter will win

Decisions might be boring to you but they show that through the course of the entire fight there's domination, and no there's no doubt Gsp dominated his opponents and rendered them impotent

HW is the toughest division to compete in, bar none. There's no division where the value of "one punch" is greater.

And no, even relative to size it has not historically been shallow. A decade ago, Fedor and GSP were both primeish. Here's what their respective divisions looked like(or something similar)...

WW:
GSP
Hughes
Kos
Fitch
Karo
Serra
Lytle
Alves
Shields
young Condit
young Diaz
young Lawler

HW:

Fedor
Nog
Randy
Sylvia
Arlovski
Barnett
Hunt
Mir
Sergei
Cro Cop
Gonzaga
Werdum
Reem
young Cain
young JDS

 

[grimballer]

Except ww has always been one of the toughest division while hw has historically been shallow

Anyways you value finish even if it's lesser opponents

I value the strength of opponents and how they perform

Mma is a volatile sport where one punch can end the fight and not necessarily the better fighter will win

Decisions might be boring to you but they show that through the course of the entire fight there's domination, and no there's no doubt Gsp dominated his opponents and rendered them impotent

K let’s not pretend all the fighters gsp faced were elite either...

As for decisions...it’s not question of it being boring, it’s simply isn’t as definite like a stoppage

Without time limit your opponent could still continue fighting if you weren’t able to put him away

That’s why I compared it to soccer

In soccer too you might have one team attacking all game, but then the other team has one opportunity, scores n wins the game.

So yeah, it’s good controlling the game, but if you can’t score n beat your opponent within given time limit, what’s the point?

In mma Judges will give decisions based on subjective criteria that they interpret how they want, but it’s always better to finish the fight on your on terms than depend on someone else to tell you did slightly better than your opponent

 

[wlu.29]

K let’s not pretend all the fighters gsp faced were elite either...

As for decisions...it’s not question of it being boring, it’s simply isn’t as definite like a stoppage

Without time limit your opponent could still continue fighting if you weren’t able to put him away

That’s why I compared it to soccer

In soccer too you might have one team attacking all game, but then the other team has one opportunity, scores n wins the game.

So yeah, it’s good controlling the game, but if you can’t score n beat your opponent within given time limit, what’s the point?

In mma Judges will give decisions based on subjective criteria that they interpret how they want, but it’s always better to finish the fight on your on terms than depend on someone else to tell you did slightly better than your opponent

don't compare it to soccer, all of these guys gsp faced are for sure elite and top tier when gsp fought them:

fitch, koscheck, hughes, alves, shields, condit, maybe even diaz

are you serious telling me because gsp - fitch ended in a decision, it wasn't definitive?

are you telling me because gsp - koscheck ended in a decision, it wasn't definitive?

are you telling me because gsp - alves ended in a decision, it wasn't definitive?

that's not being intellectually honest

the only one i'll say where the decision wasn't definitive was the the hendricks fight

 

[grimballer]

don't compare it to soccer, all of these guys gsp faced are for sure elite and top tier when gsp fought them:

fitch, koscheck, hughes, alves, shields, condit, maybe even diaz

Sure ranking wise, they were high, but skills?

Fitch was solid all around, but nothing special. He had a good run before gsp fight, but then started losing once he faced better competition

Kos was one trick pony. Good wrestler with big right hand m that’s about it

Hughes was good in his time, but by the time he fought gsp the game past him by

Alves was just overrated after demolishing Old man Hughes n short camp koscheck. He didn’t really have an legit wins besides those 2

Shields good grappler with horrible striking

Condit n Diaz are good strikers with no tdd

Fedor also beat guys like arlovski, Sylvia n Rogers when they were ranked high, but then got exposed later on.

are you serious telling me because gsp - fitch ended in a decision, it wasn't definitive?

are you telling me because gsp - koscheck ended in a decision, it wasn't definitive?

are you telling me because gsp - alves ended in a decision, it wasn't definitive?

that's not being intellectually honest

Wouldn’t finishing those fights made even more of a statement n made his performance even more dominant?

the only one i'll say where the decision wasn't definitive was the the hendricks fight

I hope so considering it was split decision n a lot of ppl felt Johny won

 

[Someone88]

Ali also lost to Berbick. Is Berbik a legend? How about Spinks, even tho he avenged that one? I agree Ali shouldn't have been fighting by then.

Neither should Fedor at 34. His boxing coach was admitting that Fedor was slowing down at 32, two years before he lost to Werdum. Fedor had been training hard for 15 years by then (he was on the Russian national judo team, which starts very young and is extremely intense in its workouts), was competing in MMA and combat sambo. His speed was gone - so gone that even his boxing coach admitted it,and coaches never do that unless they think it's so obvious there's no point in denying it.

Athletes age at different rates. Usain Bolt is over the hill (by his own admission) at 31. Samprass couldn't win a tennis match over age 30. 95% of Olympic athletes who win gold under 30 can't repeat (or even medal) when they try again over 30. But there are of course exceptions. Fedor is not an exception in this regard, he aged like most athletes (again, 95% of Olympic athletes).

I've actually been a fan of Fedor for a while, but I just feel GSP is slightly ahead now. But that can change again, you make some valid points in regards to Bolt and Sampras. It's definitely still debatable, also this is all still subject to change.

 

[wlu.29]

Sure ranking wise, they were high, but skills?

Fitch was solid all around, but nothing special. He had a good run before gsp fight, but then started losing once he faced better competition

Kos was one trick pony. Good wrestler with big right hand m that’s about it

Hughes was good in his time, but by the time he fought gsp the game past him by

Alves was just overrated after demolishing Old man Hughes n short camp koscheck. He didn’t really have an legit wins besides those 2

Shields good grappler with horrible striking

Condit n Diaz are good strikers with no tdd

Fedor also beat guys like arlovski, Sylvia n Rogers when they were ranked high, but then got exposed later on.



Wouldn’t finishing those fights made even more of a statement n made his performance even more dominant?



I hope so considering it was split decision n a lot of ppl felt Johny won

ok, you're going to talk down all gsp's opponents now?

i can play that game with fedor's opponent way easier, but i'll leave it be

as for your comment about more dominant, i'll ask you a simple question?

what's more dominant fedor beating nogueira while not finishing or JDS KO Cain Velasquez in 47 seconds?

fedor bashing nogueira's is certainly more definitive than a one punch KO that more than likely proved to be flukey

 

[Ancient Warrior]

GSP lost two fights in his 20's.

Fedor lost three fights in his 30's and one in his 40's.

Pretty much a wash.

If anything, its worse to lose in your 20's than your 30's, but actually both are part of the normal curve for athletes. Take a look at Olympic gold medal winners - the peak age is 28. Very few win gold medals in their 30's (as in less than 10% of gold medal winners are over 30), very few win gold medals in their early 20's).

Choosing between the two is just a question of personal preferences. For what its worth, both Fedor and GSP have said they have huge respect for each other, way more than their fans have for the other.

And despite the problems Anderson and Jones have had with PED's, they won many fights before testing positive, so they're part of the GOAT discussion as well.

Basically as far as I can see there are the big four (in no particular order): GSP, Anderson, Jones, Fedor, and the differentiation between them is like kids arguing about what's the best color:

'red'
'no you're wrong, blue's the best color'

The losses between St Pierre and Emelianenko are not a wash imo.

I’m not saying Fedor’s overall career was more impressive, but I think you’re cherry picking facts to sugar coat St Pierre’s KO loss a bit. George’s loss unfortunately occurred at his peak, despite his age and it’s a blow to his claim for the #1 p4p slot.

He might still earn it anyway with the quality and his longevity, but I don’t think you can compare both win streaks.

 

[grimballer]

ok, you're going to talk down all gsp's opponents now?

i can play that game with fedor's opponent way easier, but i'll leave it be

Yeah they were good wins at the time, however if we look at it objectively they had holds in their games.

Fedors top 2 wins still went on to be dominant after he beat them, how many of gsp opponent did the same?

as for your comment about more dominant, i'll ask you a simple question?

what's more dominant fedor beating nogueira while not finishing or JDS KO Cain Velasquez in 47 seconds?

fedor bashing nogueira's is certainly more definitive than a one punch KO that more than likely proved to be flukey

That’s cause you looking in retrospect n know how next 2 jds /Cain went.

What if jds ko Cain in 47 seconds in all 3 fights?

Would you still argue that fedor decisioning nog 3 times is more dominant than jds finishing Cain 3 times?

 

[wlu.29]

Yeah they were good wins at the time, however if we look at it objectively they had holds in their games.

Fedors top 2 wins still went on to be dominant after he beat them, how many of gsp opponent did the same?



That’s cause you looking in retrospect n know how next 2 jds /Cain went.

What if jds ko Cain in 47 seconds in all 3 fights?

Would you still argue that fedor decisioning nog 3 times is more dominant than jds finishing Cain 3 times?

i'll say that fedor wins over nogueira is much more impressive than fedor's win over arlovski

 

[ThunderStruck]

Well you could argue Being undeafeated close to 10 years with a record of 31-1 > decisioning top ww during 6 years run n a record of 25-2

Well you could argue that ignoring losses makes you a stupid dumbass.

 

[ThunderStruck]

HW is the toughest division to compete in, bar none. There's no division where the value of "one punch" is greater.

And no, even relative to size it has not historically been shallow. A decade ago, Fedor and GSP were both primeish. Here's what their respective divisions looked like(or something similar)...

WW:
GSP
Hughes
Kos
Fitch
Karo
Serra
Lytle
Alves
Shields
young Condit
young Diaz
young Lawler

HW:

Fedor
Nog
Randy
Sylvia
Arlovski
Barnett
Hunt
Mir
Sergei
Cro Cop
Gonzaga
Werdum
Reem
young Cain
young JDS

The thing is GSP fought and beat allllll of those except Lytle (who never earned a title shot) while Fedor didn't fight Randy, Barnett, Mir, Sergei, Reem, Cain and JDS (oh he fought Werdum but lost to him). So basically Fedor only fought and beat half of the top HWs while GSP basically beat allllllllll top WWs.

 

[turbotime]

HW is the toughest division to compete in, bar none. There's no division where the value of "one punch" is greater.

And no, even relative to size it has not historically been shallow. A decade ago, Fedor and GSP were both primeish. Here's what their respective divisions looked like(or something similar)...

WW:
GSP
Hughes
Kos
Fitch
Karo
Serra
Lytle
Alves
Shields
young Condit
young Diaz
young Lawler

HW:

Fedor
Nog
Randy
Sylvia
Arlovski
Barnett
Hunt
Mir
Sergei
Cro Cop
Gonzaga
Werdum
Reem
young Cain
young JDS

Fedor doesn't have a lot of the big names he should have, though (Randy, Barnett, Mir, Sergei, Gonzaga, Werdum, Reem, etc.)

His resume would look so much better if those names replaced some of the cans he fought.

 

[turbotime]

The thing is GSP fought and beat allllll of those except Lytle (who never earned a title shot) while Fedor didn't fight Randy, Barnett, Mir, Sergei, Reem, Cain and JDS (oh he fought Werdum but lost to him). So basically Fedor only fought and beat half of the top HWs while GSP basically beat allllllllll top WWs.

This is the difference right here my friends. and I love Fedor.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

The losses between St Pierre and Emelianenko are not a wash imo.

I’m not saying Fedor’s overall career was more impressive, but I think you’re cherry picking facts to sugar coat St Pierre’s KO loss a bit. George’s loss unfortunately occurred at his peak, despite his age and it’s a blow to his claim for the #1 p4p slot.

He might still earn it anyway with the quality and his longevity, but I don’t think you can compare both win streaks.

GSP's losses were on the way up. Fedor's losses were on the way down. Both are part of the normal arc of a fighter's (or any athlete's) career. I'd say they're a wash.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I've actually been a fan of Fedor for a while, but I just feel GSP is slightly ahead now. But that can change again, you make some valid points in regards to Bolt and Sampras. It's definitely still debatable, also this is all still subject to change.

Putting GSP slightly ahead of Fedor or vice-versa is normal; I only find it silly when someone says one or the other isn't even in the conversation.

 

[MacGregor]

DC is the only fighter who has a realistic argument over Fedor as GOAT. GSP is an all time great and p4p in line with Sakuraba imo.

 

[Ancient Warrior]

GSP's losses were on the way up. Fedor's losses were on the way down. Both are part of the normal arc of a fighter's (or any athlete's) career. I'd say they're a wash.

I don’t think St Pierre’s loss to Serra was “on his way up”, but to each his own.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

I don’t think St Pierre’s loss to Serra was “on his way up”, but to each his own.

On the cusp, just as Fedor's loss to Werdum was on the cusp.

As I said, my pick for GOAT is Fedor, but GSP, Anderson and Jones are all in the running, and I think anyone preferring any of the four is understandable. Anyone who thinks any of them are out of the running (and of course you have to discount any wins after a failed PED test) is too biased to take seriously.