Grappling also start standing... why negating the ground makes me a lesser grappler?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by migeru29, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    Combat Wrestling is a competition cross point rule set for all grappling styles.

    If you set a diagram of all major grappling styles (BJJ, both Olympic wrestling styles, Judo, Sambo) then throw in a few not so well known (even Sumo), you will find out that all of them have takedowns scored high (if not a match finisher), pins been either end of the match of very highly scored, getting out of bounds been penalized (but also been used as escape from submissions, since out of bounds game is not recognized) and finally, some of them have submissions (in Judo and Sambo you can only submit on the ground).

    None of them (except BJJ) scores back mount. Combat Wresting does award you 1 point (same as all other positional points, except pins, only once per match).

    All of them (except BJJ) are restarted in standing.

    In all of them, submissions are the end of the match.

    So, in short, if you really want to be fair and invite all grappling styles to compete and have a fair chance of winning, Combat Wrestling is the optimal one.

    The whole point of the rule set is to be something like K1 of grappling, not a style by it self. Although, if someone is trained under Combat Wrestling rule set, he will obviously be very well balanced grappler, with equal knowledge of takedowns, positional control, pins, submissions.
    And as such, can have success in all of the big grappling styles, with minor adjustments to jacket.

    I hope that answers the question.
     
  2. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,824
    Likes Received:
    926
    What's the point of something like that? For people who train multiple grappling styles. I could understand competing in a hybrid rule set if the was a huge pile of prize money.
     
  3. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    I dont understand the question.
    Is it:
    A. Whats the point of competing?
    B. Whats the point of having a fair rule set for all grapplers?
    C. Whats the point of winning?
     
  4. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,824
    Likes Received:
    926
    B
     
  5. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,824
    Likes Received:
    926
    Who is the competition targeted towards?
    I compete in BJJ because I train that.
    As a BJJer why would I want to compete in something that's a hybrid of BJJ and something else?
     
  6. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    You are asking the fundamental question for the existence of cross sport platforms, such as UFC(today MMA is a sport by it self), K1, ADCC (you might want to see their Wikipedia description) and plenty of others.
    Are you suggesting that:
    A. Every competitor should compete only within his own rule set.
    B. If cross competing, the rule set shall ALWAYS give advantage to one style.
     
    AZ103 likes this.
  7. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    Thats fine.
    Nobody is forcing you to participate in activities, you have no interest in.
     
  8. yetanother

    yetanother Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    2,824
    Likes Received:
    926
    Yes, competing under rule sets I don't train for never made much sense to me without a huge prize to justify it.
    If I wanted to compete under ADCC or MMA rules I would train for those rules.
    Doing MMA as just a grappler seems crazy to me. Even if I win why would I want to compete with people punching me when I can't strike.
     
  9. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    There are people like you and then there are people like Royce Gracie, who is the reason you train BJJ in a first place.
    To each his own.
    Anyway, there was a question here regarding Combat Wrestling and I answered it.
    Have a good day.
     
    TheFakeMacoy, AZ103 and ChainFlow like this.
  10. Patrick Jane

    Patrick Jane Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,797
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Location:
    Suplex City, B*tch!
    He isn't. Gracie vs. Kimura.
     
  11. DatCutman

    DatCutman Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2014
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    201
    The competition is targeting towards people whose ideal is to be the best grappler. This is opposed to trying to be the best BJJ'er, best Judoka, etc. To say you're the best grappler, you have to look at the entirety of grappling (as opposed to exclusively competing in rulesets incentivizing portions of it), and create rules that reward good grappling. BJJ tried, but then betrayed itself, and now is its own microcosm.

    If you just want to be the best BJJ'er (or are so deep in the kool-aid that you don't recognize there is more to being a good grappler than being good at BJJ), then don't do it. You don't have to. But if you want to say you're the best grappler, but never compete outside of Shuai Jiao competitions, then it isn't adding up.

    YEA BUT IT SHOULD BE

    WHAT IF YOU'RE GRAPPLING ON A CLIFF OR ON TOP OF A BUILDING OR NEXT TO A TRASH COMPACTOR OR WHATEVER!?

    CLEAR ANTI SUMO BIAS.

    I would also accept the compromise of allowing open palm striking, ala sumo, from standing. You could also allow open palm striking on the ground, per CJJ.
     
    AZ103, ChainFlow and Ivaylo Ivanov like this.
  12. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    [​IMG]
     
  13. dmwalking

    dmwalking Sapateiro Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    8,043
    Likes Received:
    3,220
    It depends on whether or not the stand up guy is a competent ground grappler. If you have a complete skill set, then you're a great grappler who prefers to stand. But if all you are is a great stand up grappler, then you're not a great grappler. You are a great stand up grappler. You are incomplete.

    So the answer is basically: it depends on whether or not the player is well rounded. I mean, if you train muay thai, but you only punch and never kick, then you're not really a muay thai guy. You're a boxer who fights in muay thai matches. But if you're a muay thai guy who does kick and knee but he just happens to be a great boxer and tends to use his hands more than his feet, then he's still a great muay thai fighter. He just has a strength in one aspect more than the other.
     
  14. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    Exactly!

    The definition of grappling is very wide, swinging from extremities of stand up only, to ground work only.

    A complete grappler should be equally versed not only in both stand up and ground, but in everything in the middle (aka clinch, scrambles).
     
    FatherSauce, AZ103 and dmwalking like this.
  15. AZ103

    AZ103 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,659
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Arizona
    Are you involved in combat wrestling at all? I think its so cool and i think it SHOULD be the ultimate grappling sport. However, even in this thread it got a negative response from jj guys and it seems they dont really want cross over with wrestling so who knows what will happen...
     
  16. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    Yes, I am the founder and president of the International Combat Wrestling Federation.
    I wouldnt count the responses of the BJJ guys in this thread as the general opinion towards Combat Wrestling.
    We have plenty of competitors and world champions, who come from BJJ background.
    There are many people who are not afraid to go out of their comfort zone, represent their own style and win.
     
    AZ103 likes this.
  17. AZ103

    AZ103 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 12, 2007
    Messages:
    2,659
    Likes Received:
    166
    Location:
    Arizona
    Youre the man! I'll keep telling everyone I know that combat wrestling has the best rule set.
     
    Ivaylo Ivanov likes this.
  18. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    Thank you veru much!
    I appreciate the support!
     
  19. Ivaylo Ivanov

    Ivaylo Ivanov FICW President

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    319
    Location:
    Bulgarium
    BTW, an example for a complete grapller, would be Shutaro Debana:
    - BJJ black belt and champion of Japan
    - Judo black belt and 3rd in Japan
    - Sambo national champion and 2 times winner of the prestigeous international tournament President's Cup
    - Combat Wrestling world champion
    - Went to a draw with Sakuraba in the 1st Quintet...

    Shinya Aoki has very similar CV...
     
    AZ103 likes this.
  20. dsdoubled

    dsdoubled Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,700
    Likes Received:
    2,981
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Ben Askren has this idea that a near-submission should be rewarded highly in grappling. I like the idea. Is this considered in CW?
     
    Gregoire1 likes this.

Share This Page