Gordon Ryan is top 15 in the World, possibly top 10

[mataleaos]

I wonder why it was so different at EBI- the score would have been like 9-2 Ryan.

Gordon lost in the finals of the ADCC in 2015 with 3 years of training, as in he should have been in the intermediate division

I think it's not usually a good idea to try and retroactively score sub only matches with points. People grapple differently. They allow sweeps or passes on them that they might not do if there were points. They will choose to not pass or sweep when they might if it were a points match. Lots of other examples. A Keenan vs Gordon match would look different at adcc and look different again at nogi worlds. I'm not saying the outcome would be different but the matches would not look the same. So trying to go back and score that match with points after the fact is not going to give a lot of info on much.

 

[mataleaos]

I said if their match was points he would have won easily, the score would have been like 9-2. I don't know any back story about why people underperformed, I try not to embrace excuses, even when they come from guys I'm fans of. I know there are always other factors in the match and its rare that competitors are at 100%.

I'm not implying that Gordon is going to run through the bracket but he's shown already that he'll be competitive with anyone. He has not been blown out by anyone that I've seen and he's probably improving quicker due to much less training time

I agree with the bolded but like I said in a previous post I don't think it's accurate nor very informative to try and score sub-only matches afterwards. I can rattle off a half dozen reasons why it accomplishes nothing in terms of predicting what that match would have been like with points and why it's also unlikely that the score would even be accurate if points had been in place during the match.

 

[mataleaos]

I wonder why it was so different at EBI-

A few reasons. When points are involved, grapplers are less likely to go allow themselves to be swept or passed. Gordon Ryan for example loves to allow people to mount him so that he can frame on the hips, enter ashi garami, and get the outside heel hook. Now maybe he would totally allow himself to get mounted to go for that transition in a points match, but I think he would at least be more hesitant to do it. I mean one can make a very strong case that being mounted in a no gi sub only match can actually be better for the bottom player if they're an ashi/slx specialist.

There is also less of a tendency to go for sacrifice subs in points matches. Let's say someone working to pass the guard and they lock up guillotine choke, darce choke, kimura lock, or a toe hold. They are less likely to go to the bottom in order to finish it if points are involved, because not finishing the sub will give you a strong chance of losing. Eddie Cummings said that almost word for word in a polaris pro preview video on youtube.

Also, certain positions themselves are harder to come by. The RNC is the most common submission in mma and it's always the most common choke (if not sub) at adcc and nogi worlds. Many people open up their back when punched in mma and many people open up the back when they are getting their guard passed in points matches. Because they turtle up to not get scored on. In sub only a lot of grapplers elect to eat the guard pass and work to re guard instead of exposing their back. That's why you don't see that many RNCs at ebi outside of overtime.

Darragh O'Connail was interviewed after he north south choked Boogey Martinez at EBI and he said he worked on that instead of his usual favorite guillotines/darce series because he knew less opponents would turtle during his guard passes. He's competing again at EBI 11 next weekend.

Also an event like adcc is done over a weekend. EBI is done in one night. So a grappler in the semi finals at adcc is going to be much more rested after a full night of sleep after their first two matches than a grappler in the semi finals of EBI. This will likely change their strategy, and it will definitely increase their chances of getting swept/passed/back taken/submitted due to fatigue alone.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Scoring sub only matches as points matches and trying to draw conclusions from them is silly IMO. The meta games are totally different. I don't base my belief that Yuri or Keenan would probably beat Gordon at ADCC on anything in their performances against him in those matches, I base it on Yuri and Keenan having medalled at ADCC and competed multiple times in that format against high level opponents when Gordon didn't even qualify last time. If Gordon has better wrestling than he shows in EBI (which he very well might, EBI couldn't do much more to disincent wrestling) he could do fine. But having never seen him compete successfully against top guys outside of sub only formats I'm going to go with the proven track records of ADCC vets.

 

[NinjaFitBJJ]

He beat them under weird rule sets. Who gives a fuck about who is best at escaping back control?

would you rather him win on points?

 

[JustTheTip]

No.The best in the world are in ADCC (noGi) and IBJJF(Gi). Gordon has not achieved much in either and shouldn't be considered near the top until he does.

 

[NSchoke]

I think it's not usually a good idea to try and retroactively score sub only matches with points. People grapple differently. They allow sweeps or passes on them that they might not do if there were points. They will choose to not pass or sweep when they might if it were a points match. Lots of other examples. A Keenan vs Gordon match would look different at adcc and look different again at nogi worlds. I'm not saying the outcome would be different but the matches would not look the same. So trying to go back and score that match with points after the fact is not going to give a lot of info on much.

If the match was close/back and forth, I would agree with this. This match was very one sided in every way, it's not like Yuri was opening up and attempting submission and losing position off of that. Ryan had many more and stronger sub attempts on top of being positionally dominant.

Anyone watching that match and saying it would have gone a different way under ADCC rules is mistaken. Saying that Yuri would just blow by Gordons guard and possibly tap him off the position defense? Did we watch the same match?

Who knows what will happen next time they meet, I'm sure it'll be closer, but that day I don't think there was a ruleset where Yuri would have won. It was just Gordon's day, for whatever reason.

 

[NSchoke]

You mean in the trials? Because Ryan wasn't even in the big show in 2015.

Yes, meant trials

 

[ngarauru]

Yuri
Keenan
Rustam
And the dude that triangled Tonon

youve undone yourself

 

[IamStryker]

I don't like his attitude or his marketing tactics, buy his record is unbelievable. His name is thrown in with a lot of guys who are great but stop short of being truly elite. But Gordon breaks that threshold.


Anyone know how he does against Tonon?

I believe their trainer says they go back and forth about 50/50.

 

[IamStryker]

He beat them under weird rule sets. Who gives a fuck about who is best at escaping back control?

Sub only is a weird rule set?

 

[yetanother]

Sub only is a weird rule set?

Those more hour no time limit sub only matches seem really weird and very stupid.

 

[IamStryker]

Those more hour no time limit sub only matches seem really weird and very stupid.

Personally I find EBI and all other sub only variations to be far superior to winning by points.

 

[Overtures]

If Tonon and Gordon go back and forth than maybe he isn't top 15. Because Tonon certainly has husband weaknesses.

 

[mataleaos]

If the match was close/back and forth, I would agree with this. This match was very one sided in every way, it's not like Yuri was opening up and attempting submission and losing position off of that. Ryan had many more and stronger sub attempts on top of being positionally dominant.

Anyone watching that match and saying it would have gone a different way under ADCC rules is mistaken. Saying that Yuri would just blow by Gordons guard and possibly tap him off the position defense? Did we watch the same match?

Who knows what will happen next time they meet, I'm sure it'll be closer, but that day I don't think there was a ruleset where Yuri would have won. It was just Gordon's day, for whatever reason.

Okay, so I'm not saying any of the bolded at all. I am simply saying that every rule set has its own terms and conditions that apply. Is it reasonable to assume that they match would likely be similar? Sure. You asked how a match between the same two people could be different at EBI, and I was giving a list of various reasons why a match at ADCC or NoGi Worlds could look significantly different than a match between the same two people at EBI. I have not seen the match between Gordon and Yuri since it happened. I did actually predict Gordon Ryan to win the event when it was announced he would replace Eddie Cummings, and I was one of the few people that did.

I'm not saying that as a humble brag but rather as a reason to at least try and convince you that I am a Gordon Ryan fan and I'm not even talking about his match with Yuri.

I'm simply stating that going back and trying to calculate what points would have been in a submission only match is not worth much. It's not a dig at you nor Gordon Ryan nor Yuri Simoes.[/QUOTE]

 

[Uchi Mata]

Sub only is a weird rule set?

In many ways, yes. It encourages a meta game that doesn't work in any other environment where grappling is tested. Other tournaments, MMA, self defense...a lot of what is optimal in a sub only setting is a terrible idea in those modes.

 

[Aethyr]

Personally I find EBI and all other sub only variations to be far superior to winning by points.

That's arguable. EBI is like an imaginary boxing match that could only be won by knockout; and jabs and other low power punches magically do no damage to you nor score any points, so you just eat those without bothering to even block them. And if nobody wins by knockout, they take turns taking open shots to the head or body until one of them folds, and then measuring the time or number of punches it took to knockout if both end up knocked out.

It's an extremely unnatural format designed to try to force a winner decisively.

 

[NSchoke]

Okay, so I'm not saying any of the bolded at all. I am simply saying that every rule set has its own terms and conditions that apply. Is it reasonable to assume that they match would likely be similar? Sure. You asked how a match between the same two people could be different at EBI, and I was giving a list of various reasons why a match at ADCC or NoGi Worlds could look significantly different than a match between the same two people at EBI. I have not seen the match between Gordon and Yuri since it happened. I did actually predict Gordon Ryan to win the event when it was announced he would replace Eddie Cummings, and I was one of the few people that did.

I'm not saying that as a humble brag but rather as a reason to at least try and convince you that I am a Gordon Ryan fan and I'm not even talking about his match with Yuri.

I'm simply stating that going back and trying to calculate what points would have been in a submission only match is not worth much. It's not a dig at you nor Gordon Ryan nor Yuri Simoes.

[/QUOTE]

The person I was responding to said-
"Yuri would just pass Gordons guard in normal ADCC rules, maybe choke him as Gordon desperately tries to do something."

I responded asking why it was so different at EBI?

There are no rules that would have made that happen in the match I saw.

I am fully aware that people are going to adjust their strategy based on ruleset. I really doubt that people who are getting beat bell to bell positionaly and in sub attempts then tapped in overtime, would thrive because points were being scored. I don't think getting beat in every area is a strategy but it happens sometimes.

I know there are strategies to IBJJF(like sweeping/scoring late) and to ADCC(wrestling in the -1 Guardpull period) and to Sub Only. I don't think any strategy Yuri had would have mattered that day, they're important when it's close, this match wasn't close. It wasn't Yuri's day.

 

[fittycentguard]

Gordon is elite, as is Tonon and Cummings. I am not sure why people hate on the DDS. Is it really just because of their attitude? I mean, if they were nice guys would people like them? I think it is mostly because they wreck people with the legs/heel.

 

[IamStryker]

That's arguable. EBI is like an imaginary boxing match that could only be won by knockout; and jabs and other low power punches magically do no damage to you nor score any points, so you just eat those without bothering to even block them. And if nobody wins by knockout, they take turns taking open shots to the head or body until one of them folds, and then measuring the time or number of punches it took to knockout if both end up knocked out.

It's an extremely unnatural format designed to try to force a winner decisively.

I can't really compare the two in my own mind. Punches do damage while rolling around and accomplishing nothing but position doesn't do any damage. Rolling for points is just more boring to more people.

I don't see what's natural about point fighting. Getting the KO or the submission is closer to a real life situation even though nothing is exactly like a real life situation of course.