Evidence of God vs Evidence for no god

I have every ground to assume infinity. Take an astronomy course. Ask yourself these questions. What is outside of the Universe and everything the big bang created? Hint: we will never every know. But lets just say for the sake of argument that it was a larger universe filled with little universes. Well, what's outside of that? If there is an end to the universe (you say that there is no grounds to assume infinity) then what's outside of that? And that? And then that?

It's not compatible with human thought because it can't, and never ever will be measured. This is different from people assuming God is the Sun because they don't understand nuclear physics. The sun and what it is can be measured. The Universe , and what is outside of that, if there is an outside of that, can't be.
So you're just saying it's safely beyond the reach of our current knowledge, so let's throw in god and infinity and pat ourselves on the back. Horse shit.

It's no different from thinking god is the sun. It's exactly the same reasoning, just giving the unknown different properties.
 
So you're just saying it's safely beyond the reach of our current knowledge, so let's throw in god and infinity and pat ourselves on the back. Horse shit.

It's no different from thinking god is the sun. It's exactly the same reasoning, just giving the unknown different properties.

You strike me as a classic Athiest who lives in an echo chamber of other liberals and you have never been intellectually challenged about this discussion beyond arguing with stupid religious people.

I explained to you the difference between one and the other. There is no end to the existence of everything and therefore it can't be measured. This is fundamentally different from the kinds of things that people didn't understand in the past and explain it with a God. But the concept of a God runs into the same problem, what created God? What was before that? Nothing? How is that possible? These are different kinds of questions than "why do plants grow" or something like that. A plant can be observed and studied. The infinity can not.

It's humbling and beyond our comprehension that's why I say that we should be open minded to the possibility of God.
 
Okay, thing is while we are here there is also evil and suffering.
Of course. For there to be a moral choice at all, there has to be also evil, the absence of good. And, while there is suffering, only some of it results from evil.

We could do all those things without the bad, God could make that so couldn't he?
No, we could not. The very existence of good requires the possibility of evil.

The argument that people can't understand is not a valid one.
Whether people understand it is irrelevant. Much like a game programmer makes games regardless of if the characters in those games know it, it is true, and relative to his game, he is god for all intents and purposes.

People do understand basic good and evil.
You just demonstrated that you don't, claiming that one can exist without the other.

They understand that if a being is all-powerful he is not limited by anything, including paradoxes.
The thing about paradoxes isn't that they're limiting anything. The thing about paradoxes is that they have no content. If you say a square circle, it doesn't mean anything. You demonstrate only that you can combine words in a way that does not make sense, not the limits of having all power.
 
Of course. For there to be a moral choice at all, there has to be also evil, the absence of good. And, while there is suffering, only some of it results from evil.

No, we could not. The very existence of good requires the possibility of evil.

Whether people understand it is irrelevant. Much like a game programmer makes games regardless of if the characters in those games know it, it is true, and relative to his game, he is god for all intents and purposes.

You just demonstrated that you don't, claiming that one can exist without the other.

The thing about paradoxes isn't that they're limiting anything. The thing about paradoxes is that they have no content. If you say a square circle, it doesn't mean anything. You demonstrate only that you can combine words in a way that does not make sense, not the limits of having all power.

No, the existence of good is not reliant on the existence of evil. Evil only serves to help us measure good, but not for it exist. Not every action is good or evil. Now the possibility of doing evil is needed for free will. That is unless you are an all powerful God, in which case you could make free will exist without evil.

If we can understand God is very relevant to this conversation. If we can't well then their is simply know way of proving he exist. Their are no defined measurements we can take, observations we can make that shows us proof of something we can't understand. If that is the case we have not much to discuss.

Words have meaning. This means that paradoxes do in fact show us limits in some concepts. One of those is the idea of omnipotence. Their are limits to that power or their are not. If their are no limits to Gods power you can't argue that evil must exist for their to be good because God could simply make that happen.
 
No, the existence of good is not reliant on the existence of evil.
We can walk through this. Tell me, what is good? I need a definition.

Evil only serves to help us measure good, but not for it exist.
If a choice isn't good, what is it, by definition?

Not every action is good or evil.
I don't know that.

Now the possibility of doing evil is needed for free will.
Yes! Great that you understand that.
That is unless you are an all powerful God, in which case you could make free will exist without evil.
...and a pancake. My jubilation was premature. When there is no choice there can be no more good than can there be evil. Free will, by definition, requires both as real alternatives.

If we can understand God is very relevant to this conversation. If we can't well then their is simply know way of proving he exist.
There are several proofs, though none of them are or require "God is omnipotent". One thing about God is that relatively little is known, and Epicurus really didn't know even that much when he invented his little wordplay.

Words have meaning.
Which explains why it's possible to combine them in ways that do not make sense.

This means that paradoxes do in fact show us limits in some concepts. One of those is the idea of omnipotence. Their are limits to that power or their are not. If their are no limits to Gods power you can't argue that evil must exist for their to be good because God could simply make that happen.
I believe God can't make oxymorons true, for there is nothing in them to make true. One uses signifiers without a signified.
 
We can walk through this. Tell me, what is good? I need a definition.

If a choice isn't good, what is it, by definition?

I don't know that.

Yes! Great that you understand that.

...and a pancake. My jubilation was premature. When there is no choice there can be no more good than can there be evil. Free will, by definition, requires both as real alternatives.

There are several proofs, though none of them are or require "God is omnipotent". One thing about God is that relatively little is known, and Epicurus really didn't know even that much when he invented his little wordplay.

Which explains why it's possible to combine them in ways that do not make sense.

I believe God can't make oxymorons true, for there is nothing in them to make true. One uses signifiers without a signified.

I'm sure you can look up the definition of good, I'm sure you know what good is. You asked if a choice is not good what is it. That depends on the choice. Neutral, nether good nor evil is a possibility. Choices are very often are not black or white.

Now we get into the weeds regarding how you look at God's omnipotence since you say that without choice there can be no good or evil (which I disagree with, but we will go with for now) that seems to indicate that God is not truly omnipotent. This is backed up by you saying that God can't make an oxymoron true.

You claim little is known about God, yet we know all we need for this exercise. We know he is omnipotent (as pointed out to truly), omniscient, and omnipresent.

I take it you believe in free will, so I would ask how does free will work within the idea of an all-knowing God. If God has perfect foreknowledge then no one really has a choice because their is no way a person could act in any matter other then how God has foreseen things.
 
no, the one as in you're not even beginning to understand why you can't see something.

That doesn't mean God fills the gap, genius. I'll talk to you like a toddler now since you're going to be an idiot.

Yes, a typical nonsense argument. Claiming that someone can't start to understand God, therefore we can't question or argue his existence. This is basically admitting their is no proof of God.

Yes, if does mean that God fills the gaps. If you believe that God created the Universe and we don't have a perfect understanding of how the Universe came into being, God fills those gaps. This is not hard to grasp, you simply don't want to.
 
I got to thinking. I'm an atheist...but if I was presented with enough evidence...say...Jesus himself flying down from heaven on a unicorn...I would probably be open to the idea of there being a god. However...I wonder what kind of evidence it would take for a hardcore "believer" to question the existence of a god. If you are a believer...is there ANY evidence that could be brought forward that could make you question your faith?

No?

Assuming that is the case with every "believer", doesn't it make it pointless then to engage in any debate about creation, god, etc... with them since nothing the scientific community could uncover would ever change their mind. That's sad. I don't want to believe that. I mean...are there any of you out there who believe in god that are at least openminded enough that if xyz evidence came forward...you would start to question it. I got one for you guys....what if we perfected transhumanism/nanotechnology/immortality and lived for another 900 billion years on this planet (assuming the sun never collapsed into a black hole) with no sign of the rapture or Armageddon etc.. Would THAT be enough time for you to start questioning your faith in a god?


EDIT!!!! PLEASE BEFORE ANSWERING REFER TO THURISAZ'S POST ON PAGE 2 FOR A GOOD EXAMPLE OF HOW TO ANSWER IF YOUR ANSWER IS YES. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A BACK AND FORTH WAR. PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC OR LEAVE.

Edit #2!!! Everyone on this thread is circle jerking about not being able to prove a negative and blah blah blah when all I asked was if there was ANY event/evidence that could make them personally QUESTION the existence of god. Literally, only one person answered my question in this entire fucking thread. Either grow some balls and answer the question or take a hike.
Oh, "El Crappo"...you haven't changed a bit.

Still doing your little breathing excercises!? Don't forget Who put that breath in our lungs!

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Yes, if does mean that God fills the gaps. If you believe that God created the Universe and we don't have a perfect understanding of how the Universe came into being, God fills those gaps. This is not hard to grasp, you simply don't want to.

We don't have an argument or understanding of how the Universe came into being without God either, you don't even know what you're arguing. God of the gaps is predicated on lack of scientific knowledge. Just because we don't understand it, doesn't mean it can't be explained and God is the only answer to our realm of understanding. This is not hard to grasp, you simply don't want to.
 
I'm sure you can look up the definition of good, I'm sure you know what good is.
There are several. I'd like to know what you think is good. It's hardly useful for either of us to make an argument concerning a definition you do not share. That's why I asked you. If you do not cooperate, then there is little reason to continue further.

You asked if a choice is not good what is it. That depends on the choice. Neutral, nether good nor evil is a possibility. Choices are very often are not black or white.
The definition of evil is the absence of good. There is no neutral.

Now we get into the weeds regarding how you look at God's omnipotence since you say that without choice there can be no good or evil (which I disagree with, but we will go with for now) that seems to indicate that God is not truly omnipotent.
Morality is defined by choice. If there is no choice, there's absolutely no reason to call anything good or evil. In that scenario neither has any meaning.

This is backed up by you saying that God can't make an oxymoron true.
I repeat: having all power does not mean being able to make stuff that are by definition impossible to conceive. While it is impossible to make a square circle, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether one has power to do what one wishes. This is because one cannot wish a square circle. It does not mean anything. If your intellectual capacity can't understand this, my king needs a new, competent adviser.

You claim little is known about God, yet we know all we need for this exercise. We know he is omnipotent (as pointed out to truly), omniscient, and omnipresent.
He's neither omniscient nor omnipresent. There are few Biblical claims to the former, and even those are highly situation specific, and absolutely none of the latter. Omnipresence in case of God is not only false, it is also a category error. He's not here nor there, but beyond the material universe.

I take it you believe in free will, so I would ask how does free will work within the idea of an all-knowing God.
Depends on what can be known. If everything, including the future, then neither man nor God has free will, and the concept has to be abandoned as nonsense. I tend to be of the opinion that omniscience, understood that way, is itself an oxymoron. However, the Biblical God is obviously not omniscient, and so the question is irrelevant.

If God has perfect foreknowledge then no one really has a choice because their is no way a person could act in any matter other then how God has foreseen things.
Almost right. Foreknowledge doesn't alter the fact that the ones who make the choice do not have the choice forced upon them. Free will becomes impossible when combined with foreknowledge of their creator. In that case they'd be simply puppets. Were that true, the Bible would make absolutely no sense.
 
We don't have an argument or understanding of how the Universe came into being without God either, you don't even know what you're arguing. God of the gaps is predicated on lack of scientific knowledge. Just because we don't understand it, doesn't mean it can't be explained and God is the only answer to our realm of understanding. This is not hard to grasp, you simply don't want to.

The difference is science will just say we don't know. Religion does what you just did...throw in God. That is the fallacy. Not know, not having an explanation does not provide evidence of anything.
 
There are several. I'd like to know what you think is good. It's hardly useful for either of us to make an argument concerning a definition you do not share. That's why I asked you. If you do not cooperate, then there is little reason to continue further.


The definition of evil is the absence of good. There is no neutral.


Morality is defined by choice. If there is no choice, there's absolutely no reason to call anything good or evil. In that scenario neither has any meaning.


I repeat: having all power does not mean being able to make stuff that are by definition impossible to conceive. While it is impossible to make a square circle, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether one has power to do what one wishes. This is because one cannot wish a square circle. It does not mean anything. If your intellectual capacity can't understand this, my king needs a new, competent adviser.


He's neither omniscient nor omnipresent. There are few Biblical claims to the former, and even those are highly situation specific, and absolutely none of the latter. Omnipresence in case of God is not only false, it is also a category error. He's not here nor there, but beyond the material universe.


Depends on what can be known. If everything, including the future, then neither man nor God has free will, and the concept has to be abandoned as nonsense. I tend to be of the opinion that omniscience, understood that way, is itself an oxymoron. However, the Biblical God is obviously not omniscient, and so the question is irrelevant.


Almost right. Foreknowledge doesn't alter the fact that the ones who make the choice do not have the choice forced upon them. Free will becomes impossible when combined with foreknowledge of their creator. In that case they'd be simply puppets. Were that true, the Bible would make absolutely no sense.

A good act is one that is virtuous. One that helps another person, or brings joy to another person. Claiming that evil is simply the absence of good is pretty much nonsensical. Simply walking down the street is not good or evil. Saying that evil is the absence of good is a claim that gets made to explain how God can allow evil. If it is the absence of good and God has give free will, evil follows. However you don't need this explanation.

With you not holding that God is not omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent the existence of evil is not an issue with a benevolent God.

I would then ask you, what is the nature of God?
 
The difference is science will just say we don't know. Religion does what you just did...throw in God. That is the fallacy. Not know, not having an explanation does not provide evidence of anything.

Everything we know scientifically, and everything we know period, suggests that something can't come from nothing and order does not present itself. Therefore, scientifically, it makes sense to theorize a Creator of some kind. Whether you want call it God, aliens, purple sea monkeys..whatever. This universe points to an intelligent source.

So again...this is not using God to fill in a gap of what we don't know. This is us looking at what we do know and seeing that it points to God...or some kind of intelligent source. So even if you disagree with where we think it points to you can't call this a "God of the gaps" fallacy.
 
Everything we know scientifically, and everything we know period, suggests that something can't come from nothing and order does not present itself. Therefore, scientifically, it makes sense to theorize a Creator of some kind. Whether you want call it God, aliens, purple sea monkeys..whatever. This universe points to an intelligent source.

So again...this is not using God to fill in a gap of what we don't know. This is us looking at what we do know and seeing that it points to God...or some kind of intelligent source. So even if you disagree with where we think it points to you can't call this a "God of the gaps" fallacy.

You are wrong on your first two counts. Hawking Radiation from black holes works because pairs of particles pop into existence everywhere all the time. Normally they annihilate each other right after coming into existence, on being an anti-particle, but on the edge of black holes we see one particle being captured by the black hole and the other just out of range. Something from nothing.

Second, you have been given examples of order presenting itself without help. If nothing more then matter itself is presented in an orderly fashion.
 
He's neither omniscient nor omnipresent. There are few Biblical claims to the former, and even those are highly situation specific, and absolutely none of the latter. Omnipresence in case of God is not only false, it is also a category error. He's not here nor there, but beyond the material universe.

When the Bible describes God as regretful, do you suppose that this may not point to a lack of omniscience, but rather, a lack of omnipotence? I prefer the latter since it aligns more with the qualities of a traditional God. I think it's fair that both can act as an explanation, but a lack of omnipotence, to me, points to a God who cannot do evil, while a lack of omniscience points to a deficiency in knowledge, which is why I have adopted this view.
 
There is no null hypothesis that can possibly account for all the variables you can attribute to an unknowable entity with incomprehensible logic.

Thread should have ended right here. Instead it's going into its 80th page.

Whereas, other WR threads full of meat and room for exploration often die on the vine within a page or two.

This is why I don't believe in a just and loving God. :)
 
The difference is science will just say we don't know. Religion does what you just did...throw in God. That is the fallacy. Not know, not having an explanation does not provide evidence of anything.

Religion says we just don't know, but that doesn't mean God can't exist. It's not a fallacy. You really do not have basic reading comprehension skills, if you do, you're too arrogant to realize what I am trying to say because it opposes your faulty logic and misinformed use of theological premise.

What you are doing is creating a false dichotomy, where it must be one or the other. You refuse to see that science and religion can co-exist. You're the problem here.

You are wrong on your first two counts. Hawking Radiation from black holes works because pairs of particles pop into existence everywhere all the time. Normally they annihilate each other right after coming into existence, on being an anti-particle, but on the edge of black holes we see one particle being captured by the black hole and the other just out of range. Something from nothing.

Second, you have been given examples of order presenting itself without help. If nothing more then matter itself is presented in an orderly fashion.

This only applies if you include quantum theory, which is stretching a great deal to come to this conclusion, although it works with the theory.
 
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Do you believe in self generating universes? Galaxies just...happen? LOL...sorry buddy but you're the idiot I f that's what you believe.


Right but only one combination of cards would allow intelligent life to arise while an innumerable amount of other combinations will not. So the liklihood that we would receive the one, exact combination of cards that would lead to life is not the same probability of receiving one of the million other combinations that would not lead to life. Chances are much greater that you would end up with a pair, a full house, straight flush, or something else that didn't lead to life rather than a royal flush.

But as we all know the universe is much bigger and more complicated than a deck of cards. Instead of having 52 cards in a deck imagine having 52 quadrillion, million, zillion cards in a deck with still only one right combination for life. The probability that you receive the single one right combination is pretty much zilch. But the chances that you receive one of the 52 quadrillion, million, zillion wrong combinations is all but guaranteed.

It really comes back to the old 747/junkyard analogy. We would never expect order to randomly, and without intelligent direction, arise from chaos anywhere within the universe. So why would we expect the universe itself to randomly arise from chaos without intelligent direction?


You're making the mistake of assuming our carbon based form of intelligent life is the only kind of intelligent life form that could develop. If the universe formed under different conditions intelligent life could develop in a completely different manner with alternative materials. What does a silicon based life form look and think like? You don't know what any of those other hands could lead to. Does any intelligent life mean there's a god or just ours?

I wouldn't be surprised to see a 747 to come to exist in a junkyard over incredible lengths of time. An asteroid carrying simple life in frozen water could land in the middle and intelligent life could develop to observe the birds and make bio-inspired machines.

Apply your junkyard analogy to God. The universe is too complicated to have formed over time without a designer but God, something complicated enough to be able to create the universe, doesn't need a designer?
 
Religion says we just don't know, but that doesn't mean God can't exist. It's not a fallacy. You really do not have basic reading comprehension skills, if you do, you're too arrogant to realize what I am trying to say because it opposes your faulty logic and misinformed use of theological premise.

What you are doing is creating a false dichotomy, where it must be one or the other. You refuse to see that science and religion can co-exist. You're the problem here.

If you think I'm arguing that God can't exist you have me mistaken. I think their is no evidence of God. I believe you can't prove, nor disprove his existence.
 
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