ego check

berimBOWLoh

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I was trying this out at my gym for myself. One day i just went in and let everybody who never tapped me (im a brown belt so there are quite a few) that i rolled with tap me without making it super obvious. It was actually harder for me to do than i thought, alot of times i instinctively escaped and had to remind myself i wanted to try out this test.

I told some teammates of mine about it {(higher belts im close with) and nobody else was capable of allowing it to happen. I dont know what that means, just found it interesting. Its not something i plan to do regularly but after 9 years i figured it was something different to do and it might inspire some lower belts to keep going or train harder etc

i wonder why its so hard for most people to do??
 
I used to do this as a Pavlovian conditioning; depending on their rank, I'd hold them accountable for certain details in certain phases; if they were correct to an OK degree in their understanding and application, I'd give them the tap. It had the opposite effect of what I'd intended though. Instead of rewarding good technique and making people focus, the reward ceased to be a reward. It either made them too big, or made me too small. By too big, I mean it instilled a false confidence, then they would get smashed by an athletic white belt and feel like shit about themselves, so it was a net self-esteem loss overall. I don't think anybody quit, but there were a lot of people who just felt bad. It made me small because, over time, people caught on to the fact that the market was flooded with taps from me, and people started getting lazy in our rolls. I've always believed in the "kill the instructor" model of student-master relationship, so to see my plan backfire so hard was disheartening.

Now I just try to be a little bit better than their level, and wait as long as I possibly can before escaping something. Between that approach (and depending on the person, adding in banter/shit talking), it's created a "God damn it, I'll get you next time" reaction that seems to make people more engaged when rolling with me. Also they know it's legit if they tap me now, because I goofed around for too long and they sunk it in. As far as I can tell, it hasn't devalued a "tap" against me in the school's tap market. God knows what unintended consequences this will have. Hopefully it just gets people to train and have a good time though.
 
I was trying this out at my gym for myself. One day i just went in and let everybody who never tapped me (im a brown belt so there are quite a few) that i rolled with tap me without making it super obvious. It was actually harder for me to do than i thought, alot of times i instinctively escaped and had to remind myself i wanted to try out this test.

I told some teammates of mine about it {(higher belts im close with) and nobody else was capable of allowing it to happen. I dont know what that means, just found it interesting. Its not something i plan to do regularly but after 9 years i figured it was something different to do and it might inspire some lower belts to keep going or train harder etc

i wonder why its so hard for most people to do??


I think it is great that you did this. I feel like in some sections of society, maybe more online than anywhere, people have forgotten how valuable and powerful humility is.
 
it depends, if you are rolling with white belts, giving taps aways shouldnt be problem, more like reward for the job they did on getting into those positions, they know you are letting hem hve it...

an advance blue doesnt get free taps anymore... purple nd above should e competent enough to hang with most people specially hobbist.
 
I play a pretty mellow style and will let people get good grips on me to try to play their game, but I never give taps away. I choose not to do it not because of my ego, but because people have to earn that.
 
I hate when people let me do stuff in training. It screws up the ability to judge how something is working.
 
I hate when people let me do stuff in training. It screws up the ability to judge how something is working.

But its all relative to the person anyway. Monday, I have a good day an you never catch me, Tuesday, due to personal circumstances I have a bad day and you catch me everytime - your level is no different.
 
I rarely will give up a tap, but I WILL give up a position and sometimes that will lead to a tap. I especially like to let people sit back for armbars. It has made my armbar defense much better and given me a good ability to use an armbar to get to a better position.

Re ego checks: some people will think they actually earned something that you merely gave them. If they do this, I'll smash then relentlessly for a month or so.
 
But its all relative to the person anyway. Monday, I have a good day an you never catch me, Tuesday, due to personal circumstances I have a bad day and you catch me everytime - your level is no different.

You can kind of feel if some one is rolling badly because he is sick or heart broken or whatever. If I hit my new sweep/pass/submission on a tough opponent when I'm doing it incorrectly just because they want to train escaping from side control or get tapped or do whatever stupid thing it is super misleading.
 
it depends, if you are rolling with white belts, giving taps aways shouldnt be problem, more like reward for the job they did on getting into those positions, they know you are letting hem hve it...

an advance blue doesnt get free taps anymore... purple nd above should e competent enough to hang with most people specially hobbist.

I’m not talking about giving away taps. I actually think that is kind of condescending. I don’t make it seem like I let them do it, I go for something crazy and give up my back or when they throw up a sub I didn’t defend it properly TIL the last moment and seems like I just got caught.

When people know you let them get it, it’s not really a test of your ego. If anything it’s more dominance letting them know they can’t only get something if you allow it in a very obvious manner.

Just my 2 cents. I’m open to other perspectives
 
Re ego checks: some people will think they actually earned something that you merely gave them. If they do this, I'll smash then relentlessly for a month or so.

why does it upset you that much?? you ever think that through?? In the grande scheme of things does some guy going home all proud because he thinks he tapped you in training make your life any worse??

also FTR i wasnt advocating doing this regularly. i said its a test i wanted to try. 9 years in and i have never done it before. Some guys that started around my time or a little later have never tapped me and some guys i started with i have never tapped. Just how it goes. Some browns and purples tapped me for the first time that day and i bet it felt good af and maybe now they think they are catching me or surpassing me but should i care?? maybe that tap is what inspires just one guy i train with not to quit or to work harder to improve. i dont see a big net loss for me. Then again im just doing it for fun.

i just wonder how when people talk about bjj helping you become less egocentric this task feels like blasphemy to most people ive spoken with even for 1 day?? I remember days when i "caught" or thought i caught somebody i never have before. Even as im a higher belt and its a great feeling. Makes it feel like my dedication paying off. Maybe they let me have it?? ill never know for sure because i know when its obvious and i take no joy in that. Still, its just training. Why are people caring so much about taps or what they mean in training??
 
I hate when people let me do stuff in training. It screws up the ability to judge how something is working.

I see where you're coming from but you're going to be paranoid for the rest of your life if you think this way.

My old model was "tap is a tap". Regardless of outside forces I considered any tap legit. Very simple but also an unreliable indication of the efficacy of a technique.

Really the best way to verify efficacy is to try it in competition. In the gym I judge efficacy by its ability to work on a variety of people multiple times over a significant period of time (e.g. a few weeks). These are where those people who don't like to tap until their arm pops are very useful.
 
Yea I've done this before. For me, it's hard to do because of my ego.

I don't know where you train but your "win:loss" ratio in the gym is probably skewed towards win - you expect to tap out most people you roll with at least once. The people you tap out think you are fucking magical. Remember when you were a blue belt and you tapped out a brown belt? Huge fucking deal right? I remember I was buzzin for a day or two. You probably forget this sensation because you are not sufficiently challenged on a regular basis.

Just the other day someone was telling me they used to catch me sometimes but that they hadn't caught me in a while. I distinctly remember the times this person tapped me and they were all times where I was trying new things. I felt a sudden urge to tell them this and then felt an inner fire to beat the shit out of this person every time we rolled from now on to let them know it was a fluke.

That's my ego. I don't want to even allow them to think they they were better than me - I want to erase any doubt from their mind. I do my best to manage those thoughts.

Sometimes if you give away monster position to people they will legitimately catch you. I let a white belt get me in an americana a few months ago and I legitimately could not escape. I could have dismissed it as a fluke but I learned from it because I acknowledged it as a legit sub, even if I could have defended at any point before the actual sub.

Giving away subs without any intention to learn is an entirely different thing. I've done this maybe once or twice and this is dangerous. It means I'm not in a proper mental place to train and rolling this way with the wrong people could get me hurt. If I find myself like this I just go home after formal instruction.

The other more practical concern is I've noticed that if people who you otherwise beat the shit out of think they're getting monster position on you, they will crank up the intensity to ADCC. They taste blood and will go fucking crazy to get that sub. I've been hurt from letting people work position on me before. They don't see it as a learning opportunity, they see it as a trophy to take home. Ego goes both ways.

As they always say in boxing, protect yourself at all times. If I can't do that I go home and return tomorrow.

TLDR - Yes it's ego. People can also misinterpret you letting them work as a chance to sub you at all costs - including your own safety.
 
I was trying this out at my gym for myself. One day i just went in and let everybody who never tapped me (im a brown belt so there are quite a few) that i rolled with tap me without making it super obvious. It was actually harder for me to do than i thought, alot of times i instinctively escaped and had to remind myself i wanted to try out this test.

I told some teammates of mine about it {(higher belts im close with) and nobody else was capable of allowing it to happen. I dont know what that means, just found it interesting. Its not something i plan to do regularly but after 9 years i figured it was something different to do and it might inspire some lower belts to keep going or train harder etc

i wonder why its so hard for most people to do??


I'll regularly let folks tap me as long they have gone into the move correctly. This helps them see moves all the way through. Quite often, though, I will let somebody get super deep into a submission to see how late I can escape. I don't know if it is an age thing, but at 48 yo with a great life, career, and family the idea of being upset over getting submitted seems comical - much like getting upset because my daughter beat me in a game of cards.
 
I normally don't give away Taps. Depending on their level, I let them get to an advantage and work my way out. If I do allow it, its because I want them to feel and understand the finish.
 
I’m not talking about giving away taps. I actually think that is kind of condescending. I don’t make it seem like I let them do it, I go for something crazy and give up my back or when they throw up a sub I didn’t defend it properly TIL the last moment and seems like I just got caught.

When people know you let them get it, it’s not really a test of your ego. If anything it’s more dominance letting them know they can’t only get something if you allow it in a very obvious manner.

Just my 2 cents. I’m open to other perspectives

Well then, I don’t think is right for you to do it... your playing Jesus Christ on the mat... no ego shouldn’t be for you to make you look like a white belt infront of white belts, it’s not to quit bjj cause your getting wrecked and dominated by other people for real...cause all you’ll do is a form disrespect with your classmates... also giving them a false sense of security, I don’t see the point. Getting your back taken from failing a fancy move is no problem, and staying there and letting them work is fine, if they tap you is also fine, but it’s quite obvious for anyone that you are not fighting for real, or should be...now acting like your going for real and they tap you that’s going too far...again your making no good to anyone...
 
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I never like to give taps away either, but sometimes I'll coach someone through a sub who knows it halfway. I always found it extremely helpful when senior belts did it for me.
 
Gonna take a moment to grandstand on this issue, as it's a pet peeve of mine.

The sayings in BJJ are vague and hard to interpret. There's a huge drive to leave ego at the door, don't bring ego on the mats, kill ego, etc. Many times we associate "ego" with "winning" or "caring about winning." Really, the intent (in my belief system) is that you shouldn't let ego inhibit your pursuit of technical excellence in all of grappling. In other words, if being afraid to lose is negatively impacting your ability to improve, then you need to "leave your ego at the door." I don't think it means you should roll like a wet noodle or just let people tap you for no reason. You should look to cultivate technique in your training partners as well (as ultimately, having better training partners will lead to you also having better technical expertise), and just handing out taps or giving pat-on-the-back rolls isn't going to help anyone improve their technique. Doing it as a motivator is one thing (though as I said previously, it failed in my experience), as keeping people coming back hungry for more will lead to an improvement in their technique. But doing it to prove you don't care don't improve technique at all. If anything, it's a bigger ego game ("I'm more humble than you!"). An apathetic approach to tapping/being tapped in training can be good, but it can also be bad. The deciding factor is whether or not it is improving your jiu jitsu.

Same analysis when people equate "using strength" with "ego", where people deride or chastise others for "muscling" things. The fact is using your strength correctly augments your performance and technique. If you use strength to the detriment or neglect of technique, then that's no good. That applies to your own technique (never learning how to properly do things because you wrench the arms of people half your size out of their socket like a caveman) or the technique of others (when I was 13 I had a grown adult power lifter bicep curl me when I was trying to armbar them; as a white belt it taught me not to trust armbars, which was counterproductive). However, learning to skillfully apply the strength you have is a "technique" in and of itself, so simply saying "no strength ever" is counter productive too. You may as well say no strength, no speed, no flexibility, no being taller or shorter than your opponent, no having different muscle fiber ratios to your opponent, no having a different personality from your opponent, and no having better abilities to learn than your opponent. You'd both just lay there like bricks, immobile, unmoving. It's madness. The "flow with the go" or "playing" rolls can be helpful to your technique, but they can also teach you to be lazy or to not capitalize on opportunities within the time frames they exist, which is detrimental to your technique too.

When you restate the focus to be improving your jiu jitsu (culmination of your physical attributes/abilities and mental attributes/abilities), everything else makes sense and falls into place. Of course it doesn't matter if you win or lose in training; all that matters is whether or not you're improving your technique. Of course you shouldn't hulk smash all the time if you aren't getting better; but the guy who is good that can also still extract his strength is a fucking beast. Of course you should sometimes "flow roll" if it is to the benefit of, rather than at the expense of, your technique.

Some people confound "improvement" with "taps" (sometimes improvement will lead to taps, but not always; and sometimes taps indicate improvement, but not always), but that's another issue. That's teaching people to identify improvement, and/or to learn how to learn, which is the difference between a great instructor and a mediocre instructor.
 
I never give away any taps.

That being said, I do still get tapped even by white belts sometimes. That's because I am willing to take chances during training and work on new stuff. Sometimes that results in me screwing up and getting tapped.

I let all my guys know those taps are 100% legit though. Just because I was trying something different doesn't make the tap any less real. If they got me, they got me.

But as far as intentionally giving stuff up, I don't do that. I'm not sure that's the best way to train. It seems like it creates more problems than it solves.
 
Well then, I don’t think is right for you to do it... your playing Jesus Christ on the mat... no ego shouldn’t be for you to make you look like a white belt infront of white belts, it’s not to quit bjj cause your getting wrecked and dominated by other people for real...cause all you’ll do is a form disrespect with your classmates... also giving them a false sense of security, I don’t see the point. Getting your back taken from failing a fancy move is no problem, and staying there and letting them work is fine, if they tap you is also fine, but it’s quite obvious for anyone that you are not fighting for real, or should be...now acting like your going for real and they tap you that’s going too far...again your making no good to anyone...

maybe you are right but i dont think doing this one day out of 9 years of training is really gonna change much tbh, i just wanted to try it. Seems as most people just like my friends at the gym are dead set against it.

i personally dont care what anybody else thinks of how or why i train. Jesus Christ on the mats?? lol maybe when i had long hair ;)
 
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