'Downed' - A Story of Semantics [Nerds Only]

[aunshi189]

Yes there is.

Guys can get knocked down sure. But there's no declared knock down as there is in boxing. Any rule that required knowing when a knockdown happened would have to define it, determine if it was a slip, an attempt at a takedown or guard pull or something. That doesn't exist right now.

 

[Yep]

Well, well, well. “Nerds only” isn’t very inclusive. To add a little diversity in here I will give you my take, I concur!

 

[Jackonfire]

It is under your and the given definition but under the Unified Rules they have their own extrapolations/definitions. Here that's simply semantics.

Do I agree with it? Obviously not, I hate that limitation and it's exploitations.

Unfortunately, the "unified" rules don't apply across the board. The rules are dependent on the location.

@Siver! - perhaps the word "unified" is the problem

 

[Siver!]

Unfortunately, the "unified" rules don't apply across the board. The rules are dependent on the location.

@Siver! - perhaps the word "unified" is the problem

That's a good point.

You'd think the UFC would have set rules regardless of where the fight takes place?

I'm sure the individual commissions can say yay or nay?

 

[Dr Fong]

Guys can get knocked down sure. But there's no declared knock down as there is in boxing. Any rule that required knowing when a knockdown happened would have to define it, determine if it was a slip, an attempt at a takedown or guard pull or something. That doesn't exist right now.

It is stated within the rules that judges are to specifically consider knockdowns as part of determining a round score. Knockdowns therefore objectively exist as part of the scoring criteria.

By definition that means that judges have to consider whether it was a slip or a guard pull if they are going to assign any scoring value to them.

Knockdowns are not assigned a set numerical scoring value like in boxing. That doesn't mean 'there is no such thing as knockdowns in MMA' - an objectively incorrect and frankly silly statement.

Just like in boxing knockdowns exist as a real thing that happens and as something that forms part of the scoring criteria.

 

[aunshi189]

It is stated within the rules that judges are to specifically consider knockdowns as part of determining a round score. Knockdowns therefore objectively exist as part of the scoring criteria.

By definition that means that judges have to consider whether it was a slip or a guard pull if they are going to assign any scoring value to them.

Knockdowns in the sense that they are assigned a set numerical scoring value like in boxing. That doesn't mean 'there is no such thing as knockdowns in MMA' - an objectively incorrect and frankly silly statement.

Just like in boxing knockdowns exist as a real thing that happens and as something that forms part of the scoring criteria.

Which is a large part of the problem when it comes to the scoring system as it is, lots of things made to look objective but are actually subjective. Damage is similar, a judge is not in a position to judge how damaging two similar strikes are.

If we were to look at knockdowns within @Siver! 's suggestion of being part of the definition of 'downed' we would need a much better definition than them being mentioned in the rules without clarity on what they actually mean within MMA.

Is a leg kick which knocks a guy over a knockdown? If it is how close is that to a leg sweep in some circumstances?

 

[Siver!]

Which is a large part of the problem when it comes to the scoring system as it is, lots of things made to look objective but are actually subjective. Damage is similar, a judge is not in a position to judge how damaging two similar strikes are.

If we were to look at knockdowns within @Siver! 's suggestion of being part of the definition of 'downed' we would need a much better definition than them being mentioned in the rules without clarity on what they actually mean within MMA.

Is a leg kick which knocks a guy over a knockdown? If it is how close is that to a leg sweep in some circumstances?

Yeah, it should be clarified for scoring, I don't think it would necessarily affect 'downed' or 'grounded' opponents though, as all types of knockdown down or ground a fighter against their will.

But yes, for scoring, I agree.

 

[Uncertainly Principled]

It was understandable for the UFC to conform to local ACs before the takeover, but now?

Utter bushleaguery

Have an actual unified ruleset & if Location X doesn't like it, fine, the UFCircus can head to Location Y. The locations need the UFC more than the UFC needs them (as evidenced by the comparable quality of Vegas v Canada cards, for example)

Aside from what to me is utter nonsense (it's fine to Thai clinch an opponent's temple onto my uprising knee, but not when they've got fingers on the ground?) it's just so amateurish to have different rules from here to there.

Champions can win a title under one ruleset but lose it under another? Make it make sense

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

Logically elbow, knee, shoulder or hip ... should be grounded/downed

The hand rule is too confusing for professional human beaters.

Part of the problem is, fighters will ALWAYS be stupid. Take Tim Means' dumb ass for a second. When this whole "New rules vs old rules" thing came out, Tim did the unfortunate thing in actually thinking Joe Rogan knows what the fuck he's talking about and kneed a kneeling Alex Oliveira in the head because "he didn't have 3 points of contact." Just two problems with that. "3 points of contact" was NEVER the rule, and even if it was, Alex DID have 3 points of contact.

In no set of rules is this considered standing, and Tim admitted it was intentional, but still escaped with a NC because we think it's ok that fighters are stupid, so they're just allowed to foul people

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

Champions can win a title under one ruleset but lose it under another? Make it make sense

I can hit a home run in one stadium, but in another, hit the wall.

 

[Kryptt]

Unfortunately, the "unified" rules don't apply across the board. The rules are dependent on the location.

Indeed - I prolly should have used Commission I think.

 

[Safton]

I'm confused what happened to the whole "They have to have the palm down and it has to be weight-bearing, you can't be gaming it with fingertips scraping the mat" thing they talked about a few broadcasts ago. Was that only for one venue/commission? Did they do away with it? Because if not the situation with Evloev/Allen seems to be the very epitome of that.

 

[Dr Fong]

Which is a large part of the problem when it comes to the scoring system as it is, lots of things made to look objective but are actually subjective. Damage is similar, a judge is not in a position to judge how damaging two similar strikes are.

If we were to look at knockdowns within @Siver! 's suggestion of being part of the definition of 'downed' we would need a much better definition than them being mentioned in the rules without clarity on what they actually mean within MMA.

Is a leg kick which knocks a guy over a knockdown? If it is how close is that to a leg sweep in some circumstances?

The problem is that any attempt to insert 'objectivity' into such a chaotic sport with conflicting and messy bureaucratic oversight can often be self-defeating. It can lead to new unforeseen problems and inflexible situations that defy common sense and restrict refs/judges from making the right calls.

In the unified boxing rules there is no definition of a knockdown vs a slip either. It relies on the ref's judgement.

It's actually a good thing that no attempt to define knockdowns is made for the reasons you outline because an official ruleset writing 4 paragraphs on the difference between sweep, slips, guard pulls and legit knockdowns would be a complete mess.
Better to just have the judges go through training that explains these differences in detail.

If we can't trust paid judges to know the difference between a knockdown and a guard pull then we are already completely fucked and no amount of re-writing the rules will solve anything. We need competent individuals first and foremost.

 

[Uncertainly Principled]

I can hit a home run in one stadium, but in another, hit the wall.

Apex vs other Octagons... the rest of the rules are the same in Baseball though, no?

Also team sport. Tennis & Golf the differences are again the environment, not the rules.

It's bushleaguery

 

[Jackonfire]

There's always alternatives to throwing knees. Be like Khalil

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

Apex vs other Octagons... the rest of the rules are the same though, no?

Also team sport. Tennis & Golf the differences are again the environment, not the rules.

It's bushleaguery

Right, cage size, forgot about that one too. Another thing that changes on whims/areas.

Yeah, there's a LOT of difference state to state. It's not just the team sport thing, it's the fact that those organizations ARE the organizations. There isn't one MMA game in town, so the rules aren't nationalized in one system. No different than how XFL can run around and make it's own thing.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

There's always alternatives to throwing knees. Be like Khalil

I am ALWAYS so upset more people aren't destroying bodies on grounded guys.

*edit* I also wonder if you can just smash a guy's fingers when they're in 3 point stance. Probably not, but no reason you can't kick the shit out of their hand.

 

[Mohawk Banditó]

I'm confused what happened to the whole "They have to have the palm down and it has to be weight-bearing, you can't be gaming it with fingertips scraping the mat" thing they talked about a few broadcasts ago. Was that only for one venue/commission? Did they do away with it? Because if not the situation with Evloev/Allen seems to be the very epitome of that.

Remember back in like 2017-ish, when they were talking about doing new rules that redefined a downed opponent to stop the 3 point stance thing and weight-bearing stuff you're talking about? But then not every state accepted it, so fighters and commentary kept getting confused what worked where?


That's STILL a thing, but I think after covid and a bunch of Apex cards / lack of diversity in event locations since then got people forgetting about it. Ontario is still old rules. The next event might be back in a place that uses the unified rules. We're not explicitly told and should look at the state commission pages if we're confused. The commentators seem to be not told either, and they will NOT look at state commission pages because they don't do their homework, even "I wish my height was measured in my IQ points instead of inches" Dominick Cruz. BUT the fighters are told before every event by the commission, and the refs should be informed too, since they're the arbiters of the rules. So the action in the cage really shouldn't have a problem.

 

[Uncertainly Principled]

Right, cage size, forgot about that one too. Another thing that changes on whims/areas.

Yeah, there's a LOT of difference state to state. It's not just the team sport thing, it's the fact that those organizations ARE the organizations. There isn't one MMA game in town, so the rules aren't nationalized in one system. No different than how XFL can run around and make it's own thing.

Yeah I dig it, it's just a weak look for the UFC to not insist on the same ruleset everywhere, is all I'm saying

There's always alternatives to throwing knees. Be like Khalil

x infinity

God bless Khalil, when he's on he's ON

 

[aunshi189]

If we can't trust paid judges to know the difference between a knockdown and a guard pull then we are already completely fucked and no amount of re-writing the rules will solve anything. We need competent individuals first and foremost.

Couldn't agree more on this.