Movies Discussion regarding Micheal Mann's films

[I Fusion I]

So, I have seen Ferrari a week ago, it wasn’t great but wasn’t bad either. I thought it was kinda decent, a 6 out of 10.

In my opinion, Mann's quality got worse after his use of digital cameras, but still there’s lot of interesting stuff and some good ideas in his new films.

Miami Vice 7/10
Public Enemies 6.5/10
Blackhat 5/10
Ferrari 6/10

As you see, i'm not the biggest fan of his later work, but can still kinda enjoy it. I think the main issue is that these films, all could benefit on a re-edit or director cut. The acting, directing and cinematography was alright and they had good action, but the story could have been more focused in the case of Public Enemies and Ferrari, even with all their flaws, they manage to show the life of their characters and have a good romantic story inside of it.

Now… watch the films before this

Thief (1981)
The Keep (1983)
Manhunter (1986)
The Last Of Mohicans (1992)
Heat (1995)
The Insider (1999)
Ali (2001)
Collateral (2004)

With the exception of The Keep, which Mann disowned (it was a 2 hour and half movie trimmed to 90 minutes, with major re-edit and a film that lost its main production).. everything he did was very solid.

With Heat and Collateral being two of my-all time favorite films. Thief is a very good debut, Manhunter is far better than Red Dragon, Insider and Mohicans are well acted and have interesting characters with good characterization.

So overall, he's a great director, I would give him a 8 overall, it's a shame that after it's impressive run, he got noticeably worse.

I'd be fine if Ferrari was his last movie, as rather than making his filmography worse, it remains very solid overall.

I'd say Mann's 80-00s is easily on the same level as other top directors. Zero duds, if you do not count The Keep (as it wasn’t his fault).

 

[BisexualMMA]

Don't disagree with much of this except that I liked Red Dragon as much as Manhunter.

I liked the atmosphere of The Keep a lot but its biggest flaw was a lack of momentum. Unless the hour they trimmed was all very fast paced stuff or captivating character development the two and a half hour version would have to be like walking through molasses.

Generally speaking Mann went over the same cliff as Carpenter, Coppola, Cimino, Shyamalan and a good number of others, although not quite so precipitously as some.

 

[I Fusion I]

Don't disagree with much of this except that I liked Red Dragon as much as Manhunter.

I liked the atmosphere of The Keep a lot but its biggest flaw was a lack of momentum. Unless the hour they trimmed was all very fast paced stuff the two and a half hour version would have to be like walking through molasses.

Red Dragon is a mess, Norton was miscast and the villain was portrayed in a very over the top.

Manhunter's use of lightning, cinematography is incredibly superb, and Cox gives a great performance as lecter. I’ll rewatch some Mann films since it’s been a while I have seen them.

Heat 9.5/10
Collateral 9/10
Thief 8/10
Miami Vice 7/10
Public Enemies 6.5/10
Ferrari 6/10
Blackhat 5/10

Honestly i'm not sure, I definitely enjoyed Public Enemies meanwhile Ferrari left me mixed. I’d rather switch their votes.

Those I have seen this year, recently. Enjoyed Miami Vice much more recently, very enjoyable.

Will rewatch

Manhunter
Ali
Insider
Moicans

The Keep I don’t even consider it Mann's misfire, since like Alien 3 it was not his fault.

 

[PaleMoonlight]

Haven’t see Ferrari but his movies have sucked after Collateral. Miami Vice was a big disappointment. It was dark and boring. Acting was shit. Farrel looked funny.

Blackhat was already crap but it got worse with the ending. A computer hacker killing assassins in a middle of a parade.

In the end, Mann has lost it.

My favorite from him is Mohicans. Shit was badass and exciting.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Ferrari id say 6.5, but Red Dragon is a mess, Norton was miscast and the villain was portrayed in a very over the top.

Manhunter's use of lightning, cinematography is incredibly superb, and Cox gives a great performance as lecter. I’ll rewatch some Mann films since it’s been a while I have seen them.

Manhunter has the atmosphere and classic Michael Mann "Miami Vice extra serious" look and feel and sound going for it. Red Dragon has other stuff going for it instead. Edward Norton may not have been perfect casting in terms of fitting the role but he is a master actor and it came through. William Petersen really had the look and just a general brooding about him in the 80s that worked but if you watch the two scenes where they have monologues trying to get into the killer's mind regarding the Leeds family (Petersen in a tree in Manhunter and Norton going over photographs spread out on his floor) the spontaneity of Norton's acting and momentum shifts blows that Manhunter scene out of the water.

 

[Osculater]

BRB..... I'm gonna re-watch Heat and Manhunter

 

[Kowboy On Sherdog]

Blackhat was legit... 7.5 / 10

 

[I Fusion I]

Manhunter has the atmosphere and classic Michael Mann "Miami Vice extra serious" look and feel and sound going for it. Red Dragon has other stuff going for it instead. Edward Norton may not have been perfect casting in terms of fitting the role but he is a master actor and it came through. William Petersen really had the look and just a general brooding about him in the 80s that worked but if you watch the two scenes where they have monologues trying to get into the killer's mind regarding the Leeds family (Petersen in a tree in Manhunter and Norton going over photographs spread out on his floor) the spontaneity of Norton's acting and momentum shifts blows that Manhunter scene out of the water.

Just compare both movies side by side. One is made by an actual director, the other by Brett Ratner.

Manhunter is clearly and obviously the superior film. It shouldn’t even be a question.

Manhunter just took more liberties compared to the source material, and many people criticized the ending, thought it was ok. I’ll rewatch it next week.

Being said, did you like any of the post collateral films?

 

[BisexualMMA]

Just compare both movies side by side. One is made by an actual director, the other by Brett Ratner.

Manhunter is clearly and obviously the superior film. It shouldn’t even be a question.

Manhunter just took more liberties compared to the source material, and many people criticized the ending, thought it was ok. I’ll rewatch it next week.

Brett Ratner gets a bad rap but if I didn't know Red Dragon was directed by Brett Ratner, I would believe it was made by one of the reputed top tier directors of that time. Maybe the cast of master actors like Hopkins, Fiennes, Emily Watson, Norton etc. took the reins and largely broke down and directed their own scenes...who knows...but even if that's the case then Ratner had the good sense to let them do so.

 

[I Fusion I]

Brett Ratner gets a bad rap but if I didn't know Red Dragon was directed by Brett Ratner, I would believe it was made by one of the reputed top tier directors of that time. Maybe the cast of master actors like Hopkins, Fiennes, Emily Watson, Norton etc. took the reins and largely broke down and directed their own scenes...who knows...but even if that's the case then Ratner had the good sense to let them do so.

I think Rush Hour is kinda a fun film, 2nd and 3rd are trash. Red Dragon is decent, a 6.5/10 being very generous since I watched while my film understanding and knowledge was far lower.

Did you like anything after Collateral? Post your ratings for every Mann film.

 

[BisexualMMA]

I think Rush Hour is kinda a fun film, 2nd and 3rd are trash. Red Dragon is decent, a 6.5/10 being very generous since I watched while my film understanding and knowledge was far lower.

Did you like anything after Collateral? Post your ratings for every Mann film.

Been a while since I have seen a lot of these but going off the top of my head...

Thief - 6.5
The Keep - 6
Manhunter - 8
Last of the Mohicans - 8.5
Heat - 9
The Insider / Ali - I watched these when they came out, I remember them as being decent but they didn't leave much of an impression...I guess 6.5 or 7.0 pending a rewatch.
Collateral - 8
Miami Vice - 5.5
Public Enemies - 5.5
Blackhat - 6 maybe

 

[HARRISON_3]

Blackhat was legit... 7.5 / 10

Blackhat put me to sleep.

 

[HARRISON_3]

I think I only like Heat and Last of the Mohicans, tbh

Loved Heat, the rest (with the exception of Last of the Mohicans) are for me to poop on.

 

[I Fusion I]

Been a while since I have seen a lot of these but going off the top of my head...

Thief - 6.5
The Keep - 6
Manhunter - 8
Last of the Mohicans - 8.5
Heat - 9
The Insider / Ali - I watched these when they came out, I remember them as being decent but they didn't leave much of an impression...I guess 6.5 or 7.0 pending a rewatch.
Collateral - 8
Miami Vice - 5.5
Public Enemies - 5.5
Blackhat - 6 maybe

Insider id reccomend watching again. You did not enjoy any of the last three?

 

[Natural Order]

Film careers are like fight careers. Peak excellence followed by apparently out of nowhere downturn, generally a few big drubbings and visits to the shadow realm before calling it a day. Many people hang on too long in many fields and you can always see the degradation.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Insider id reccomend watching again. You did not enjoy any of the last three?

Not much. I don't remember Blackhat that well, just that the digital look was a bit off putting. I didn't like Public Enemies very much at all...the movie really failed to get across what Johnny Depp saw in his love interest if I remember right. Miami Vice was pretty disappointing for me. I think it would have been better if it had been set in the 80s and made in a style more inspired by the old show or else if it had been like Top Gun: Maverick and had Don Johnson, Edward James Olmos and PMT as older men getting back in the saddle.

 

[I Fusion I]

Not much. I don't remember Blackhat that well, just that the digital look was a bit off putting. I didn't like Public Enemies very much at all...the movie really failed to get across what Johnny Depp saw in his love interest if I remember right. Miami Vice was pretty disappointing for me. I think it would have been better if it had been set in the 80s and made in the style more inspired by the old show or else if it had been like Top Gun: Maverick and had Don Johnson, Edward James Olmos and PMT as older men getting back in the saddle.

I thought Blackhat was lackluster, terrible pacing, characters and horrible third act. It has two good scenes and some good shots though.

Miami Vice, greatly enjoyed it. It was Mann's take on the series, less cartoonish, more dark and realistic, plus it had very good soundtrack, visuals and good acting overall.

The action is also decent, and it has a great opening scene.

Public Enemies, thought it was decent. I liked the soundtrack and tone of the film, and Depp's portrayal of Dilinger. Thought the first 2 acts of the film were well paced, eventually it gets a bit slow and repetitive, but the duality of both characters and a bit of info about his life and FBI makes it a kinda complete film.

The action was solid, so were the heists.

Ferrari, oh.. thinking it after 2 weeks, it was ok. The pacing was a bit off, it has some good direction in many racing scenes, and lot of technicism into it. Cruz acted well, and Driver was kinda ok into it. The supporting cast was lacking, and while the film is mostly about the main character, the subplot and how they handled the end (with one scene explaining what happened) wasn’t that satisfying.

Zero issue with the digital look, if anything I liked that in both Miami Vice and Public Enemies.

If someone manages to like/appreciate these, no doubt he will like Mann's older work far more.

I'm not sure why you didn’t like Thief though? It’s a pretty great film.

I liked Caan's character, described as a thief who wants to leave his past, but gets into issues. It also managed very good his love story, giving it a more human feel. The action and cinematography is also pretty great, the scenes at night are cool as fuck.

And the soundtrack also is a synthwave mix, that perfectly fits the genre.

 

[I Fusion I]

Also, @BisexualMMA

Coppola got worse, but did not fell off completely even though Jack and Twixt are atrocious.

Godfather 3, Dracula, Rusty, Tetro, Tucker, The Rainman etc, he has some solid films.

M. Night is a good director, with some interesting ideas, he has a visual and directing style that really works when he's on. His main weakness is the writing, the twist schlock and absurd over the top plots made him make his lackluster films.

But his lastest one while a bit divisive, are kinda ok. He's like 50/50.

Cimino made two bad films, but rest of his films seem to have a very good reception.

Carpenter fell off harder than everyone after In the Mouth Of Madness, which is a great movie.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Also, @BisexualMMA

Coppola got worse, but did not fell off completely even though Jack and Twixt are atrocious.

Godfather 3, Dracula, Rusty, Tetro, Tucker, The Rainman etc, he has some solid films.

M. Night is a good director, with some interesting ideas, he has a visual and directing style that really works when he's on. His main weakness is the writing, the twist schlock and absurd over the top plots made him make his lackluster films.

But his lastest one while a bit divisive, are kinda ok. He's like 50/50.

Cimino made two bad films, but rest of his films seem to have a very good reception.

Carpenter fell off harder than everyone after In the Mouth Of Madness, which is a great movie.

Coppola had good stuff after the 70s. I think Peggy Sue Got Married is underrated and The Rainmaker is in the running for the best of the Grisham inspired wave of legal dramas that seemed to come fast and furious in the 90s. But Coppola since The Rainmaker...well the only one I watched is Youth Without Youth and it was close to unwatchable. I guess I might try the others but honestly I think Coppola is a rather deplorable human being so I'm not terribly compelled to watch movies that have already been critically panned and not recommended by really anyone.

M. Night... The guy came out guns blazing with Sixth Sense and Unbreakable, then kind of kept it going with Signs, then kept it halfway going with The Village...and then has almost exclusively faceplanted since. It's considered some kind of rousing and inspiring comeback if he makes something that's at least watchable like Split or that house in the woods thing. He is like a Neill Blomkamp that just took longer to sputter out and at least had more than one idea for a movie.

Cimino... One good movie in The Deer Hunter, one halfway good movie with Heaven's Gate. Thunderbolt and Lightfoot was decent. Year of the Dragon was crap. Desperate Hours was utter dog shit. The Sicilian was not good.

Carpenter... He had the same sort of gradual descent I guess as someone like Coppola for the most part. Stuff like Memoirs of an Invisible Man is a little better than it gets credit for. I don't think he did anything I would call a must watch after the 80s and Ghosts of Mars looks like it could have been made by Uwe Boll.

 

[I Fusion I]

Coppola had good stuff after the 70s. I think Peggy Sue Got Married is underrated and The Rainmaker is in the running for the best of the Grisham inspired wave of legal dramas that seemed to come fast and furious in the 90s. But Coppola since The Rainmaker...well the only one I watched is Youth Without Youth and it was close to unwatchable. I guess I might try the others but honestly I think Coppola is a rather deplorable human being so I'm not terribly compelled to watch movies that have already been critically panned and not recommended by really anyone.

M. Night... The guy came out guns blazing with Sixth Sense and Unbreakable, then kind of kept it going with Signs, then kept it halfway going with The Village...and then has almost exclusively faceplanted since. It's considered some kind of rousing and inspiring comeback if he makes something that's at least watchable like Split or that house in the woods thing. He is like a Neill Blomkamp that just took longer to sputter out and at least had more than one idea for a movie.

Cimino... One good movie in The Deer Hunter, one halfway good movie with Heaven's Gate. Thunderbolt and Lightfoot was decent. Year of the Dragon was crap. Desperate Hours was utter dog shit. The Sicilian was not good.

Carpenter... He had the same sort of gradual descent I guess as someone like Coppola for the most part. Stuff like Memoirs of an Invisible Man is a little better than it gets credit for. I don't think he did anything I would call a must watch after the 80s and Ghosts of Mars looks like it could have been made by Uwe Boll.

Well, I'd say that Coppola just didn’t reach that level again but few great and good films he did after. His filmography is still very good not just because of 3 of the best films ever..

M Night after The Village until The Visit sucked, yep. Then he produced few good few meh ones. Overall, he’s hit or miss.

Carpenter made In The Mouth For Madness in 90s. Which is great, Body Bags and his episode Master Of Horror are also solid.

The rest? No, thank you.

Meanwhile, Mann's quality become worse but decent for me overall, Cimino made two lackluster films but the other are far from being panned or considered duds by both movie fans and cinephiles.

I'd say Sam Raimi also got worse: In The Love For The Game, Spider-Man 3, Great Oz and Drag Me To Hell being ok.

Besides his Spider-Man and to a lesser extent Doctor Strange, his work isn’t impressive in last 20 years.

Not to mention: Burton, which become a kinda parody of himself.

Oliver Stone and Ridley Scott both become hit or miss also.